T11 Consolidated Raid Info

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Re: T11 Consolidated Raid Info

Postby PsiVen » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:23 pm

Epimer wrote:I disagree that it's a silly distinction. At the time of posting, sakkdaddy's guild were "11/12 normal and 1/12 HC", which indicates pretty speedy progression. That suggests an early (pre-hotfix) Twilight Ascendant Council kill, and given that it's the first time I've seen anyone have the opinion that the fight is the second hardest normal mode this tier, it seems to me to be eminently sensible to seek a clarification on whether or not that assessment was based on completing the encounter when it was bugged.

If you meant the prefer-ranged hotfix, then sure. But the fire-charge hotfix concerns a bug which either caused an instant wipe or did not happen. I hope nobody out there actually had their first kill on a bugged attempt, otherwise they would consider it far harder than Nefarian. I will concede that if they wiped all the time because of it, their opinion of the fight's difficulty may have been colored by the bug.

Epimer wrote:Of course there isn't ever going to be an objective easiest to hardest list, but seeking the opinions of those who have already completed the fights still has value when attempting to assess which path through 3 parallel raid instances should offer the least resistance to your group.

Of course you should seek opinions, but those opinions cannot be consolidated because they will never agree, especially in this case where 10/25 aren't even distinguished. Polls with sufficient sample size are meaningless because they don't distinguish knowledge of the respondent. In-depth discussions are more useful, as are statistics like wowprogress:

Magmaw (10): 19823 (88.29%)
Halfus Wyrmbreaker (10): 17539 (78.12%)
Omnotron Defense System (10): 17425 (77.61%)
Valiona and Theralion (10): 13227 (58.91%)
Conclave of Wind (10): 12165 (54.18%)
Maloriak (10): 10710 (47.70%)
Atramedes (10): 8492 (37.82%)
Chimaeron (10): 6481 (28.87%)
Ascendant Council (10): 5836 (25.99%)
Cho'gall (10): 3515 (15.66%)
Al'Akir (10): 3393 (15.11%)
Nefarian (10): 1089 (4.85%)

Magmaw (25): 3381 (72.91%)
Omnotron Defense System (25): 3162 (68.19%)
Maloriak (25): 2970 (64.05%)
Halfus Wyrmbreaker (25): 2968 (64.01%)
Valiona and Theralion (25): 2428 (52.36%)
Atramedes (25): 2217 (47.81%)
Conclave of Wind (25): 2061 (44.45%)
Chimaeron (25): 1599 (34.48%)
Cho'gall (25): 1059 (22.84%)
Ascendant Council (25): 871 (18.78%)
Nefarian (25): 526 (11.34%)
Al'Akir (25): 462 (9.96%)

Unfortunately wowprogress seems to be having a lot of problems tracking kills, such as the higher number of recorded Cho'gall-25 kills than Ascendant Council-25 which would imply hundreds of guilds going and killing Council in 10-man to finish Cho'gall in 25. There are also way too many recorded 10-man kills especially on hardmodes as far as I can tell. So nothing is going to be a perfect tool, and nobody is going to be able to make an informed decision without looking at multiple things.
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Re: T11 Consolidated Raid Info

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:19 pm

Wowprogress is not reliably able to determine if you do a 25 man boss after doing it on 10 man once or twice.
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Re: T11 Consolidated Raid Info

Postby VikrumthePally » Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:47 pm

Just curious if anyone could make mention of the progression path for heroic bosses?

Seems everyone goes strait for Halfus. This true?

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Re: T11 Consolidated Raid Info

Postby sakkdaddy » Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:44 am

Just to clarify a little, the main things that made Ascendant Council harder, even after the bug fixing, were the HPS and DPS requirements that at the time felt harsher than any other encounter. With some gear it becomes a damn easy fight really. Most guilds have their strengths and weaknesses, so from week to week that order I gave would change. Our 2nd Nefarian kill was a 1-shot late in the raid when everyone was tired for instance, though we wiped the most on it out of the normal mode encounters. Some fights are hardest the first time but are very repeatable afterwards (Kael'thas) and others require a lot more individual adaptation and alterness even when you outgear it (Omnotron). Some are hardest on healers and tanks (Chimaeron) and others on your dps (Council) so you really can't have a single progression path that is "best" for every guild.

For HC our planned progression path is something like this:

1. Halfus
2. Conclave
3/4. Maloriak/Chimaeron
5. Omnotron
6/7. Atramedes/Magmaw
8. Theralion & Valiona
9. Ascendant Council
10. Cho'gall
11/12. Nefarian/Al'akir

This list assumes no exploits are abused, and is mostly just based on the most common kills I could find on wowprogress. We're on Conclave now so I can't speak from personal experience yet.
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Re: T11 Consolidated Raid Info

Postby Sagedin » Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:41 pm

Eroslight wrote:3. Al'Akir

I believe a ranking like this should really be done separately for 10 and 25 man. As some fights are just simply easier on either 25 or 10 man. The reason I picked out Al'Akir is because this is in my view the most extreme example. On 25 man this fight ranks as the most difficult fight in 25 man, while on 10 man Conclave is a bigger challenge than Al'Akir.

The opposite is true on fights like Ascendant Council where the dps requirement in P3 felt a lot higher on 10 man than 25 man. So overall it is probably a good idea to mention whether you mean 25 man or 10 man difficulty ranking.
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Re: T11 Consolidated Raid Info

Postby Shathus » Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:56 pm

When I was reading up/watching videos for the Al'Akir fight, I hadn't thought the fight looked that hard (not saying easy, just like a reasonable fight) but came on the threads in this forum talking about it being at the upper end of the difficulty range.

Is it a hard fight mechanics-wise, or just a dps/healing race type of thing (my thought was due to phase 3 and needing to kill him before you run out of room).

I'd like to get some attempts on him with our 10 man group to try and finish off that instance. Guess we'll just have to pull him once or twice next week after the reset and see what happens.
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Re: T11 Consolidated Raid Info

Postby Chicken » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:04 pm

It's just a fairly chaotic fight with a lot to watch for, and some things you'll have to adapt to on the fly that very few people will be able to pick up from watching a movie or reading about a fight. It'll take most people some time to mentally adjust so they can properly avoid a combination of the cyclone wall coming in around the time of a wind burst cast without getting either hit by the cyclone wall or knocked off the platform. Timing the add kills properly to keep stacking feedback in phase 2 is also a fairly unusual mechanic, and while the third phase is pretty simple, a lot of players have a hard time wrapping their heads around the vertical element it adds*.

All in all, it's not that it's a particularly hard fight, but that it consists of a combination of challenges you don't often see in a fight, which means it takes people a while to learn. There's also the separate factor of the fight being harder in phase one on 25-man, as is pretty usual for a fight which requires people to spread while also dodging various things; that also leads to more reports of the fight being fairly difficult. I'd still disagree with what Sagedin said above about 10-man Al'Akir being easier than 10-man Conclave though, at least on normal difficulty (And that I say only because I haven't seen either fight on heroic, so can't really compare which is harder on that difficulty).

*There's also a separate issue with the third phase where certain graphics cards will not render the lightning clouds if you have your particle effects set to ultra; if people have that issue make sure they set particle effects to high instead.
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Re: T11 Consolidated Raid Info

Postby Belloc » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:22 pm

Considering the fact that there has only been two heroic al'akir kills, I think we know which one is harder :P
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Re: T11 Consolidated Raid Info

Postby Sagedin » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:42 pm

I was probably wrong by saying Conclave was easier :D. But was a bit frustrating having been trying to progress on the fight on 25 man (about 40+ attempts at this point) and our best try being 28%, while we afterwards went in there on 10 man and one-shot it for our first kill.

Of course part of the reason 10 man was easier was being able to take the 10 people that can deal with the encounter, but even then there are some very big differences. One of the major ones being that P1 goes by while only needing to avoid the cyclones once, while on 25 man it can take over 6 cyclones. Of course player skill factors in on this, but having done several bosses on 25 and 10, this one feels like the most extreme in difficulty difference.

^^ all of the above is only about normal modes, haven't set foot in heroic versions yet.
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