Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:57 am

cappytoi wrote:
Seal of Truth: All single target attacks (including Judgement, Hammer of Wrath, Exorcism, and Templar's Verdict) can now trigger this seal.


I don't really understand this patch note. According to your work on matlab this is already the case for single target attacks (I checked the ability_model.m updated in 7th December). The only thing missing in code now is to add HoW to proc seals as the latest revision doesn't have that but that doesn't really make too much difference in talent comparison, I guess. Is this patch note meaning that single target attacks also stacks the censure dot (maybe to help for target switching to fix ret on that area?)


Judgement, Exorcism, and Hammer of Wrath don't poc seals on live. And nothing but auto-attacks stack Censure on live.

Testing on the PTR so far indicates that both of these will change - Censure will get stacked by all of our single-target attacks, and all three of those abilities should proc seals. This is all subject to change, of course; I'm not sure that getting doubleprocs and double stacks on Judgement (one from Judgement, one from JotJ) will last once Blizz notices it.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby vexryn » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:59 am

Theck,
I've got a question about the interplay of tps talents from your models on the Talent Comparison.


I'd like to pick up Rule of Law, not for the threat value, but for the 15% crit chance on WoG. I'm trying to get a handle on the threat implications, though.

What I'm finding is that to pick up RoL, I will be dropping both points from Seals of the Pure, and 1 point from Reckoning. You've got values nicely listed for the impact of SotP and Reck per talent point.

But here's my uncertainty: aren't these two actually interrelated? Because my Reckoning swings proc my Seals, doesn't that actually mean that Reckoning is somewhat less valuable without SotP, or conversely that SotP is somewhat less valuable due to fewer Seal procs if I don't have 2/2 Reckoning?

I suppose it's not a big deal either way, but it just struck me that because of the overlapping value of these, removing both points from SotP and 1 point from Reckoning will reduce my tps by somewhat less than would be implied by the tps-per-talent-point calculations shown in the Talent Comparison.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:32 am

Your intuition is correct. The talent comparison is designed to give "best-case" values for each talent. In some cases that means that a talent is slightly less effective than its maximum value.

For example, in the absence of Reckoning, each point in SotP is worth somewhat less. So if you're comparing a build with 2/2 SotP, 0/2 Reck, and 0/3 Rule of Law to a build with 0/2 SotP, 0/2 Reck, and 2/3 RoL, each point in SotP is actually a smaller loss than the value in the comparison.

Note though that it goes both ways. If you start with a build that has 2/2 SotP and 2/2 Reckoning, which produces X DPS, and you compare to a build with 0/2 SotP and 1/2 Reckoning, you won't get X-2*S-1*R. It will actually be slightly higher than that, because S and R both include a little bit of that interaction.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby cappytoi » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:51 am

theckhd wrote:
cappytoi wrote:
Seal of Truth: All single target attacks (including Judgement, Hammer of Wrath, Exorcism, and Templar's Verdict) can now trigger this seal.


I don't really understand this patch note. According to your work on matlab this is already the case for single target attacks (I checked the ability_model.m updated in 7th December). The only thing missing in code now is to add HoW to proc seals as the latest revision doesn't have that but that doesn't really make too much difference in talent comparison, I guess. Is this patch note meaning that single target attacks also stacks the censure dot (maybe to help for target switching to fix ret on that area?)


Judgement, Exorcism, and Hammer of Wrath don't poc seals on live. And nothing but auto-attacks stack Censure on live.

Testing on the PTR so far indicates that both of these will change - Censure will get stacked by all of our single-target attacks, and all three of those abilities should proc seals. This is all subject to change, of course; I'm not sure that getting doubleprocs and double stacks on Judgement (one from Judgement, one from JotJ) will last once Blizz notices it.


You are indeed right as usual as I forget to count the judgement procs. The stacking censure part is good news especially for ret and to us from a point. Thanks for your clarification.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby tlitp » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:59 am

Let's discuss environmental modifiers (check the supported buff classes in [BM]). Because of synergies, one must consider two approaches : a. no buffs, then adding one buff class at a time; b. full buffs, then subtracting one buff class at a time. They're sorted out, from highest to lowest, based on the average value.

Setup : SoT, regular CS/SotR, default gear set (~359), default talent/glyph configuration.
Code: Select all
high Vengeance : veng=1.0
low Vengeance : veng=0.3
high hit/exp : 8% physical hit, 26 expertise skill
low hit/exp : 0% physical hit, 0 expertise skill


@ high V, low HE
          dps@buffs.off   dps@buffs.on   dps@avg
unrage    723             973            848
soe       494             902            698
coe       484             631            557
lotp      212             530            371
bok       293             445            369
arctac    280             388            334
pwf       252             346            299
savcom    132             185            158
sund      130             181            155
wf        115             161            138
tw         24              35             29
isb         6               9              7



@ low V, low HE
          dps@buffs.off   dps@buffs.on   dps@avg
soe       474             786            630
unrage    392             544            468
coe       310             405            357
lotp      139             342            240
bok       182             281            231
arctac    182             251            216
savcom     87             121            104
sund       86             118            102
pwf        76             104             90
wf         76             104             90
tw         25              35             30
isb         6               6              6



@ high V, high HE
          dps@buffs.off   dps@buffs.on   dps@avg
unrage    882            1184           1033
soe       607            1063            835
coe       559             726            642
bok       356             538            447
lotp      254             598            426
arctac    344             474            409
pwf       308             422            365
savcom    179             249            214
sund      176             243            209
wf        152             210            181
tw         27              38             32
isb         7              10              8



@ low V, high HE
          dps@buffs.off   dps@buffs.on   dps@avg
soe       580             934            757
unrage    478             663            570
coe       358             467            412
bok       220             339            279
lotp      166             387            276
arctac    223             307            265
savcom    118             163            140
sund      116             159            137
wf         99             136            117
pwf        92             126            109
tw         27              38             32
isb         5               7              6

A probably redundant clarification : for 5-man dungeons, check the @buffs.off columns; for unoptimized raids, the @avg columns; for optimized raids, the @buffs.on columns.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:34 am

This seems like a simple and useful enough comparison that we should put it in a calc_ file and include it somewhere on the front page. Would you mind taking your code and uploading a skeleton calc_buffs file? I can take care of graphs and such for the 4.0.6 release.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Kishi » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:46 am

from PTR 4.0.6 Build 13529:
Enchanting: Enchant Weapon - Avalanche now also procs from spell damage.


this is pretty nice. tested it on the ptr today and it seems to proc from almost anything now (including censure/consecration ticks).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:25 am

Kishi wrote:from PTR 4.0.6 Build 13529:
Enchanting: Enchant Weapon - Avalanche now also procs from spell damage.


this is pretty nice. tested it on the ptr today and it seems to proc from almost anything now (including censure/consecration ticks).


It already does on live. That's just a tooltip update.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby tlitp » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:39 pm

Avalanche isn't triggered by Consecration on the live realms. It raises an interesting question : is it being triggered by the cast itself, or by the DoT effect ? Testing this should be fairly straightforward :
  • grab a build with 2/2 HG (the corresponding glyph isn't terribly relevant, you may as well skip it)
  • be sure to avoid using SoT, thus eliminating the nuisance of Censure
  • attack a low-lvl dummy (only) with Cons and J, outside of melee range
  • check any Avalanche procs that are not synchronized (within <1 second) to Cons casts or J
  • stop when encountering the first match, or after five Cons casts
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Awyndel » Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:24 am

Any chance of a 1 statpoint graph anytime soon? Would be nice for ppl to compare pieces of threat gear.

If you're not busy ofc, otherwise just delay it.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Dwarfadin » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:16 am

Moved and edited in the right thread http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... ic#p641759
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby tlitp » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:15 am

Dwarfadin wrote:The odd is, if the physical part doesn't hit, there's no report at all on logs, no message at all. The only trace left is that the Holy Power charge is gained nevertheless.

The same behaviour was in place on December 2nd (64 HotR entries, 131 HoPow), we just failed to notice it. Thanks for the report. If you happen to carry out more tests, please use the "Call to Arms" thread, providing the WoL parse(s).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Dwarfadin » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:37 am

tlitp wrote:
Dwarfadin wrote:The odd is, if the physical part doesn't hit, there's no report at all on logs, no message at all. The only trace left is that the Holy Power charge is gained nevertheless.

The same behaviour was in place on December 2nd (64 HotR entries, 131 HoPow), we just failed to notice it. Thanks for the report. If you happen to carry out more tests, please use the "Call to Arms" thread, providing the WoL parse(s).


I'll run the same test again with WoL (as soon as I learn to use it) and move the post as soon as I can.
Sorry for that.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby tlitp » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:45 am

Check out the "WoL how-to" section of the CtA thread. If you still have problems with WoL, just provide the raw CL to Theck and he'll upload it.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:03 pm

Dwarfadin wrote:This is what I actually found out:

- Hammer of the Righteous can miss, dodge, parry
- If the physical portion misses, is dodged or parried, no holy nova damage is applied.
- Holy nova damage can separately miss (spell hit) upon a physical hit.

The odd is, if the physical part doesn't hit, there's no report at all on logs, no message at all. The only trace left is that the Holy Power charge is gained nevertheless.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. We were already aware of the behavior of the nova component, but the lack of combat log entry led us astray on the physical component. If you're interested in helping more with the mechanics testing, I'll echo tlitp's suggestion that you check out the Call to Arms thread. We can always use more smart testers.

To address some of your other concerns:
Dwarfadin wrote:During the test i've noticed an oddity about the Vindication behaviour.

- Both phys. and Holy components proc Vindication. They separately miss.
- Holy nova applies Vindications on every target: the tooltip says only primary targets.

Yup, this is the known behavior. It was changed in beta, but the tooltip was never updated to match the new behavior.

Dwarfadin wrote:- The double roll for the debuff application on your primary target can result:

Refreshed, Refreshed
Miss, Refreshed
Miss, Miss
Refreshed {only one line}
http://img838.imageshack.us/i/log1g.png/

There exists no "Refreshed, Miss" neither stand-alone "Miss".
Not really sure what the meaning is. They are not connected to Holy nova misses. I don't even think we should care about it.

No idea, but I agree with your conclusion.

Dwarfadin wrote:Other notices:

Recount reports that Censure DoT can be parried and dodged. This might refer to the application though. It needs further investigation.

The behavior of Censure has already been investigated, though for the life of me I can't find the post where we tested it. This is the application being parried or dodged; the DoT itself cannot miss.


Dwarfadin wrote:
Theckhd wrote:Judgement, Exorcism, and Hammer of Wrath don't poc seals on live. And nothing but auto-attacks stack Censure on live.

Judgement DOES proc the seal on live (like CS, doesn't refresh the DoT), it can be easily observed.

Judgement doesn't proc seals at all, in fact. The application of the Judgements of the Just debuff is what triggers SoT/SoR. This has already been tested carefully in the Call to Arms thread. If tested with 0/2 in JotJ, Judgement doesn't proc any seals.

It's noteworthy that in the build on the PTR, both Judgement and JotJ applications proc seals as of the latest testing due to the Retribution changes (all single-target attacks now stack Censure and proc seals). It's not clear if these seal double-procs will make it through to live, or whether they'll finally catch on and remove the seal proc from JotJ to compensate.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Dwarfadin » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:47 pm

Thank you Theck for your attention.
Sorry if I brought on topics already discussed. I was unaware of the JotJ proc'ing Seal of Truth, that's a nice discovery for me.

I've already applied maintankadin guild on Word of Logs, i'm waiting for your confirmation for uploading.
Tonight I'll run an extended test (6+ hours) to get better numbers about HotR.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:09 pm

Dwarfadin wrote:Thank you Theck for your attention.
Sorry if I brought on topics already discussed. I was unaware of the JotJ proc'ing Seal of Truth, that's a nice discovery for me.

I've already applied maintankadin guild on Word of Logs, i'm waiting for your confirmation for uploading.
Tonight I'll run an extended test (6+ hours) to get better numbers about HotR.


It shouldn't take anywhere near 6 hours; check the Call to Arms thread, tlitp has requested a parse of 30 HotRs.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:50 am

I'm working on the 4.0.6 code, and I noticed that there's a slight discrepancy between the mmo-champion database, the wowhead database, and the armory for spellpower weapons.

Example:
MMO: Twilight's Hammer
Speed 1.70
550 - 1022 Damage
(462.4 damage per second)
+219 Stamina
+146 Intellect
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 97.
Equip: Improves haste rating by 97.
Equip: Increases spell power by 1954.

WH: Twilight's Hammer
Speed 1.70
42 - 80 Damage
(35.9 damage per second)
+219 Stamina
+146 Intellect
Equip: Increases your critical strike rating by 97.
Equip: Increases your haste rating by 97.
Equip: Increases spell power by 1954.

WA: Twilight's Hammer
Speed 2.30
550 - 1022 Damage
(341.7 damage per second)
+219 Stamina
+146 Intellect
Equip: Increases your critical strike rating by 97.
Equip: Increases spell power by 1954.
Equip: Increases your haste rating by 97.

This discrepancy appears for quite a few other spellpower weapons as well. If someone could do a quick in-game check to see which one of the three is accurate, I'd appreciate it.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby cappytoi » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:10 am

Hi theck,

On live (4.0.3), in game tooltip shows that the weapon dmg is 1-179 and dps is 53.1 and the weapon speed is 1.70. I don't have PTR client so I can't tell that one sadly. Hope this helps.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby tlitp » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:22 am

They've eliminated the weapon damage penalty of SP-based weapons during the 4.0.6 PTR dev builds. Most of MMOC's entries should be already updated.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Charise » Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:57 pm

I know you don't support it but I tried firing matlabadin through octave recently.

It appears that strread() is not implemented in octave, and the random strread.m I found laying around the internet didn't work on my install (which isn't necessarily saying much). (I am running octave over SSH and and I didn't bother installing any of the dependencies to do plotting so I couldn't try that but everything else seems fine.)

However, it also appears that strread is being deprecated in matlab proper in favor of textscan (?). I don't have matlab myself, but from what I saw this is a recent change.

A simple 'grep -c' shows about 50 lines on which it appears. I haven't looked to see if they are interchangeable yet--but I doubt it, so it would probably be non-trivial to make the switch.



Just something to consider putting on a todo list to future proof the code and improve interoperability.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:21 pm

I'm not opposed to supporting Octave wherever possible, but I simply don't have the time to double-check the code in several different environments. If you're interested in testing it in Octave and suggesting changes that will improve compatibility, I'll try and incorporate them.

I'll try and take a look at textsan/strread once I get everything up to date for 4.0.6.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:28 pm

Single-target rotation simulations have been updated, with the following caveat:

The bugged implementation of CS/HotR in this patch has thrown a wrench in the works. The analytical models have all been built around guaranteed holy power generation on CS, and a cycle time of (9+1.5*x) seconds, where x is the average number of GCDs it takes to succeed with SotR. Now, our cycle time becomes more complicated, as a missed CS incurs an added 3 seconds and messes with the fillers. I won't get time to work out new analytical results for a few days at least, and I'm hesitating to do so in the hope that this is confirmed as a bug and gets squashed fairly quickly.

What this means for now is that you're only getting a limited update today. The analytical forms will take a bit of work, but the priority sims are surprisingly robust. It took only two lines of code to "implement" the bug. As such, I can update this post immediately to give everyone some insight on how the bug affects us. If the bug is fixed, I'll update again accordingly. I have a short-term workaround planned in case the bug is actually "working as intended" and the analytical models prove to become more difficult than expected, but I'm not going to roll that out just yet.

Also note that I'm working with an old version of ability_model.m that doesn't have the CS buff included (it's still 115% in these simulations). I didn't notice that until after I generated the data, but I'll try and update it again tonight to include the extra 20%.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Redleg » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:35 pm

Edit: Oops, I was posting this here to confirm for you in case you were still waiting to see if it was indeed a nerf. After I posted I realized you probably already have seen this post by zarhym now.

Theck, Zarhym posted about the nerf in the damage dealing forums, once again confirming it.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2046735520#12

This was a bug. A note for this has been added under the Paladin Bug Fixes section here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2166872

Missing attacks should not generate Holy Power. We generally don’t reward characters for failing to land attacks. Retribution paladins can improve their hit or expertise like other melee DPS specs do. Tanks don’t generally stack a lot of hit or expertise, but we think Protection paladins will still be able to tank just fine. Prot warriors for example miss Shield Slams.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Marilee » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:42 pm

Redleg wrote:Edit: Oops, I was posting this here to confirm for you in case you were still waiting to see if it was indeed a nerf. After I posted I realized you probably already have seen this post by zarhym now.

Theck, Zarhym posted about the nerf in the damage dealing forums, once again confirming it.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2046735520#12

This was a bug. A note for this has been added under the Paladin Bug Fixes section here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2166872

Missing attacks should not generate Holy Power. We generally don’t reward characters for failing to land attacks. Retribution paladins can improve their hit or expertise like other melee DPS specs do. Tanks don’t generally stack a lot of hit or expertise, but we think Protection paladins will still be able to tank just fine. Prot warriors for example miss Shield Slams.


That's a silly comparison. It'd be more like if they made it so warriors had several seconds added to the cooldown of Shield Slam every time a Devastate missed/parried/dodged. Blah.
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