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stats for tanking heroics

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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby Xkonvikt » Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:36 am

I think I have 136K self-buffed hp. I have 13% parry, 10% dodge and 54% block. With my guild I we can easily pull big group mobs and burn them down..(so long as we have our 17k dps fire Mage with us) I am in all heroic gear a few rep gear and a couple 359's..boots and belt. Rep grind Twilight rep for the 359 boots that are WTF nice! Then do Hyjal, all the while running those heroics it gets easier bro.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby Kyoshkin » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:36 pm

I have the boots, the wrists from the Ramakan (bad spelling, i know), and am working on the cloak.

I run with SoT, not SoI because dps seems to like pulling off me on trash packs. Bosses aren't usually a problem - surviving them is. :(

I think my main issue, to be honest, isn't a gear issue - it's a "I can't look @ 5 places on my screen at once" issue.

I'm tracking:

1) my health (i.e. determine which cooldown to use)
2) ability cooldowns (CS/HoTR, Cons, HW, AS, DP)
3) Threat
4) DBM (what specials do I need to dodge)
5) environment (are there rocks, lava, etc)

I can really only focus on 2-3 of those @ once. I can't find a way to focus on all 5 @ once, and it's the 2 that I'm not looking @ that bite me in the arse.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby econ21 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:17 pm

Kyoshkin wrote:I run with SoT, not SoI because dps seems to like pulling off me on trash packs.


I am not convinced SoT helps a lot on trash packs - afaik, it's a single target ability that takes a while to kick in. It will only help a lot on the skull if it lives a lot and skulled trash doesn't have a long life expectancy. Try SoI in fights where you think you may die and see how it feels.

it's a "I can't look @ 5 places on my screen at once" issue.


I guess that comes with experience - when you are used to the fights, you get a feel for what kind of aggro, survivability, environment you are likely to face etc. For example, most times, I don't look at my health bar as I have learnt I am not in a life threatening situation (I may glance at it when I have 3 HoPo to see if I should WoG or shield).

I don't know what add-ons you are using, but a few can help.

Threat plates is excellent for keeping an overview of what mobs are on you. The nameplate of mobs you have lost aggro on with be enlarged, making them easy to target.

I use power auras to tell me when I have 3 holy power, as tracking that on the default interface was just too hard.

QuickMark is useful for marking the skull and other raid icons. (Always having a skull marked to focus fire should solve 90% of your threat issues by keeping the dps focused and in the worst case, who cares if the dps pull the skull off you? - it's going to die fast.)
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby Kyoshkin » Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:50 pm

Econ:

a great example would be forgemaster in H GB. I have to watch my threat (b/c kiting doesn't help threat), look for rocks/lava, look @ life (do I need to LoH yet), and look @ cooldowns (can I AS or judge yet)

given my gear, i have to kite both the mace and the blades (nobody seems to be able to disarm in the LFD pugs i get), so threat is always an issue unless we get lucky and he goes defensive @ first.

I'm using www.wow-lui.com (wow-lui) as my interface. It uses grid to show when someone pulls off me (which i've used since vanilla), omen (in middle of screen transparently), and it has my health and HP bars mid height, slightly left of center on the screen.

I get the feeling that the devs wanted to make WoW more of an FPS-style game geared to the quick-twitch players, and make it extremely hard/impossible for those of us who are older and can't twitch as fast as we used to.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby econ21 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:49 am

If you are talking about boss fights, then I agree - I've noticed Cataclysm does require you to keep track of several key things at once. I still suspect it's mainly a matter of experience though - I find it gets easier (almost) everytime I do a boss fight and my gear is not upgrading now.

With the forgemaster, I don't think you should try to kite the dual swords. With your gear, a decent healer should be able to keep you up in that period. Although I would be using SoI, WoG and defensive CDs during the swords to help out. You may struggle with threat if you are kiting for 2/3 of the fight. I am not even sure how you can kite him in swords, as - unlike with the mace - he will be moving at full speed.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby Kyoshkin » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:18 am

Kiting w/ the swords out isn't too bad - i usually (read always) back up when he's picking weapons just in case he whips out his mace, so I always have a nice lead on him. Sure, I might get tagged on corner turns, but the rest of the time i'm taking minimal, if any damage - from the blades.

When I've tried tanking him straight up during blades, I've tried popping GoAK, DP, and AD, and still can't stay up - i'm usually down before I can get 3 CS in for a full strength WoG.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby fuzzygeek » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:08 am

Kyoshkin wrote:When I've tried tanking him straight up during blades, I've tried popping GoAK, DP, and AD, and still can't stay up - i'm usually down before I can get 3 CS in for a full strength WoG.


Then there's something wrong with your healer.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby Palizangetsu » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:07 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:
Kyoshkin wrote:When I've tried tanking him straight up during blades, I've tried popping GoAK, DP, and AD, and still can't stay up - i'm usually down before I can get 3 CS in for a full strength WoG.


Then there's something wrong with your healer.


I'm going to assume the healer isn't dispelling you.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby Discus » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:58 am

I get the feeling that the devs wanted to make WoW more of an FPS-style game geared to the quick-twitch players, and make it extremely hard/impossible for those of us who are older and can't twitch as fast as we used to.


I read GC's latest BLOG linked to the log in screen as an admission that they may have swung the pendulum too far in this direction. WoTLK was too easy for the hardcore players, hardcore players are a loud minority on forums so tend to get over represented. The Devs listened to them and made Cata harder, but I think they are now thinking they went a little too far.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby xstrykr » Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:45 pm

Kyoshkin wrote:I can really only focus on 2-3 of those @ once. I can't find a way to focus on all 5 @ once, and it's the 2 that I'm not looking @ that bite me in the arse.
You're not alone here. Tanking really does require a specific mindset, and it's really dependent on how well you react to things that you can see as well as react to things you know are coming.

1) my health (i.e. determine which cooldown to use)
If you're tracking your own health THAT much, I think you either need to a) get a unit frame addon and move your unit frames closer to the center of the screen, or b) get an addon that tells you when you're at a certain health threshold. Even though I have MSBT warn me when I get to 40% health so that I can pop a CD if necessary, I let my healer(s) worry about my own health so I don't have to as much. If your healers are letting you die THAT much, check recount to see what the real reason was - was that 5k overkill because your healer had a 10k Heal that came a half second late, when you needed the 12k Flash Heal instead? Or was it because the boss frenzied and you took 60k damage in the span of 3 seconds and no amount of Flash Healing could have saved you? With the former, a CD may not have saved you; with the latter, a CD probably would save you.

2) ability cooldowns (CS/HoTR, Cons, HW, AS, DP)
If you're doing your 939 correctly you shouldn't have to worry about this. Even less so if you're a keybinder and not a clicker. I personally think the default actionbars are complete crap. My bars are set up easily enough that I can reach all of my required buttons without needing to click or move my hands overly far. Adding MORE keybinds may help - don't limit yourself to the defaults.

3) Threat
Is your DPS riding your ass on threat THAT much? Have them wait one extra GCD before they go all out or make sure your own output is maxed (this is just as much gear-dependent as it is player-dependent). In a single-target scenario, you should be at 100% the entire time, provided you don't mess up your rotation too severely. In a multi-mob scenario, if one mob peels off, I expect my DPS to kill it before it kills them if it's in Execute range.

4) DBM (what specials do I need to dodge)
Repetition will make you a better player. Knowing the fights inside and out will get you more familiar with what's coming. Try to use all your senses though - if you're playing with the sound turned off or lower than Vent, try turning game sound up. I understand how important hearing guildies over Vent is, but if they're so chatty that they're distracting you from tanking, you could always move to a different channel with your group so that you can concentrate.

5) environment (are there rocks, lava, etc)
Everyone's got their own problems. Just make sure you can see what you need to see (turn up graphics, remove extraneous crap from your UI, zoom all the way out and don't play in first-person mode, etc). Again, from above, use all your senses. There are as many audio cues as there are visual cues to what's going on in the world.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby Fendorn » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:40 pm

I am probably sucking royally compared to some of you up and coming tankadins but could you guys give an eval to my stats? 114Khp 5.3% hit 24 expertise(w/ Glyph) Mastery of 11.24(had been some arguement about what is better) Dodge: 12.66%, Parry: 13.64% block of 30.29%

For gear here is my armory:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/c ... orn/simple

There are some things that wreck the heck out of me(Certain trash pulls in HHoO Fireshapers) and Some I'm the last one alive when we wipe(First boss of SFK)

I REALLY hope you can help..getting annoyed quick.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby econ21 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:18 am

Fendorn wrote:114Khp 5.3% hit 24 expertise(w/ Glyph) Mastery of 11.24(had been some arguement about what is better) Dodge: 12.66%, Parry: 13.64% block of 30.29%


This probably should go in the sticky of the gear sub-forum. You are in ret gear atm, so I can't armory you. However, those stats seem low to me - 114k hps is low for heroics; heck, it seems low for a first day L85. Have you gemmed and enchanted your gear? It sounds like you need to upgrade your gear a lot. I would aim for 130k unbuffed for heroics.

30% block also sounds very low to me. Have you reforged to mastery at all? I would reforge everything you can to mastery. Personally, I reforged dodge/avoidance. But your threat stats look rather too good - you don't need to be capped. Maybe you have reforged to them (don't); you could consider reforging base threat stats on gear to mastery (if it gives at least 60% of the mastery that reforging the avoidance would) as survival is more of an issue for us atm than threat.

Mastery is better than dodge or parry, period. Better for average damage reduction; better for combat table coverage (reducing unblocked hits and thereby smoothing damage). Dodge and parry are almost equal; try to keep roughly equal % of both to minimise diminishing returns (1% more parry than dodge is optimal for reasons I don't quite understand).
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby xstrykr » Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:05 am

Fendorn wrote:There are some things that wreck the heck out of me(Certain trash pulls in HHoO Fireshapers)
This was mentioned earlier, it usually means that you don't have anyone who can purge the Molten Barrier from them...
and Some I'm the last one alive when we wipe(First boss of SFK)

I REALLY hope you can help..getting annoyed quick.
I'd blame the healer and DPS in this regard, this usually implies that the healer is wasting his mana on DPS that's going to die anyway, OR they're just wasting their mana because they haven't learned the proper healing mechanics for cata. If it's DPS' fault, they're standing in fire or doing something similarly stupid.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby Fendorn » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:07 pm

Ok managed to get an enchant and my gear is now showing up as Prot.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby Hokahey » Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:57 am

Palizangetsu wrote:
I'm going to assume the healer isn't dispelling you.


Dispelling is key for that part of the fight. He puts a Magic DoT on you, and I believe it stacks. The healer should be dispelling every time it pops up, and it will pop up several times. If they do a good job of this, they shouldn't need to do much healing on you during that phase, since he doesn't hit all that hard at all with the swords. Frankly, when I heal that, my biggest headache is when he pulls out his shield. Even a good group tends to take a lot of damage at that point.

xstrykr wrote:I'd blame the healer and DPS in this regard, this usually implies that the healer is wasting his mana on DPS that's going to die anyway, OR they're just wasting their mana because they haven't learned the proper healing mechanics for cata. If it's DPS' fault, they're standing in fire or doing something similarly stupid.


On the 1st boss in SFK, the problem is almost guaranteed to be inadequate or poorly executed interrupting. He melee hits like a wet noodle, so tank death is generally only a concern if someone interrupts Stay of Execution so quickly that the next melee hit insta-kills the tank. It is totally unsurprising that the tank would be the last one standing in a wipe on that fight.
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