[Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Scarzi » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:02 pm

Has anyone tried fast two handers?
Last time I checked, 38% dodge is better then stacking stamina.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Kelaan » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:23 pm

Scarzi wrote:Has anyone tried fast two handers?

Most of the raiding STR weapons are 3.6 speed or slower; I don't expect that to change in later tiers. The general consensus seems to be that slower is better, as it has higher per-strike damage. Given haste's relatively low value when we can't get CS at 3 seconds, I doubt the faster white hits would make a big difference.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Scarzi » Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:04 am

Well I often duel with TF and a shield against almost every class and spam exo cause it proc's so much as well as heal from hands. That is why I am curious.
Last time I checked, 38% dodge is better then stacking stamina.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Fearonir » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:14 pm

Thought I'd jump in as a full time Ret Paladin pulling between 10 and 13k in dungeons in a mix of iLevel 346 gear and a iLevel 359 piece or two.

I keep Inquisition up nearly all the time, simply because of AoW proc'd Exorcism.

Unfortunately, every number crunching related data I've seen says that the stat priority (ignoring the possible incoming Mastery change) is Strength > Hit (to 8%) > Expertise (to 16, since you should be glyphed for the other 10) > Crit > Haste > Mastery (Click Here for concrete numerical data).

While Haste is much more appealing than previously, it doesn't trump Crit. However, at 85 they are so close that it becomes nitpicking.

If the current proposed change to our mastery goes live, and is affected by Inquisition, then the stat priority will shift to Strength > Mastery (again, dependent on whether or not the mastery is buffed by Inquisition) > Hit > Expertise > Crit > Haste, with haste and crit still remaining roughly equal.

Rotation priority is interesting, at least currently, since AoW proc'd Exorcisms take the top spot from nearly everything (excluding Inquisition) on all mobs and do take the top spot from HoW on Undead/Demon.

Also, concerning the fast 2H Weapons. Unless I missed it posted somewhere, our seal damage is still not normalized to weapon speed. So a slower weapon is better. Correct me if I'm wrong though, I just don't remember seeing anything saying they normalized seal damage to weapon damage.

Personally, I've found that when I'm lazy and don't use Inquisition a large majority of the time, my dps is lower on average than when I do. As a result of this, I love Inquisition and pray to the gaming gods that they allow it to also buff the new mastery.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Rachmaninoff » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:47 am

Fearonir wrote:Thought I'd jump in as a full time Ret Paladin pulling between 10 and 13k in dungeons in a mix of iLevel 346 gear and a iLevel 359 piece or two.

I keep Inquisition up nearly all the time, simply because of AoW proc'd Exorcism.

Unfortunately, every number crunching related data I've seen says that the stat priority (ignoring the possible incoming Mastery change) is Strength > Hit (to 8%) > Expertise (to 16, since you should be glyphed for the other 10) > Crit > Haste > Mastery (Click Here for concrete numerical data).

While Haste is much more appealing than previously, it doesn't trump Crit. However, at 85 they are so close that it becomes nitpicking.

If the current proposed change to our mastery goes live, and is affected by Inquisition, then the stat priority will shift to Strength > Mastery (again, dependent on whether or not the mastery is buffed by Inquisition) > Hit > Expertise > Crit > Haste, with haste and crit still remaining roughly equal.

Rotation priority is interesting, at least currently, since AoW proc'd Exorcisms take the top spot from nearly everything (excluding Inquisition) on all mobs and do take the top spot from HoW on Undead/Demon.

Also, concerning the fast 2H Weapons. Unless I missed it posted somewhere, our seal damage is still not normalized to weapon speed. So a slower weapon is better. Correct me if I'm wrong though, I just don't remember seeing anything saying they normalized seal damage to weapon damage.

Personally, I've found that when I'm lazy and don't use Inquisition a large majority of the time, my dps is lower on average than when I do. As a result of this, I love Inquisition and pray to the gaming gods that they allow it to also buff the new mastery.


shouldn't hit take top priority? its not gonna mean shit if you cant hit your target.

I just started working on my ret set and before I only had about 2% hit. I started working on hit and now I have 8.02%. I've had to gem primarily to hit. Obviously this is taking a toll on my str/crt/haste/mastery. but this has been helpful for me! I'm gonna work on it tonight
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Mannstein » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:35 am

Rachmaninoff wrote:shouldn't hit take top priority? its not gonna mean shit if you cant hit your target.
"..."
I started working on hit and now I have 8.02%. I've had to gem primarily to hit. ..."


Think this way... 900hit rating gives you aprox. more 8%damage (no misses) 900stg gives you more that 8% damage....
Anyway...
You almost never should gemm to hit...
Reforge is the way,
Item doesn't have hit, reforge to hit
Item has hit, reforge the other stat to expertise

(If the socket bonus is +20stg, you should gem with a orange or a purple, if it's not +40stg all the way)

Honestly, it's not the Inquisition that hurts me... it's raiding for a tier with a 3sec+lag Crusader Strike, and the beauty that is a (CS+filler)*3 rotation, and passing to a - "CS, no filler available for 4long seconds, CS, oh WTF 3holy power, Art of war and Hand of Light available... must press something... agggghhhhhhhhhhhhh... epileptic stroke due to flashing lights" rotation
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Bashe » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:23 am

Fearonir wrote:Thought I'd jump in as a full time Ret Paladin pulling between 10 and 13k in dungeons in a mix of iLevel 346 gear and a iLevel 359 piece or two.

I keep Inquisition up nearly all the time, simply because of AoW proc'd Exorcism.


is this pre or post nerf of Inquisition? I apologize having to ask that, but quite frankly it caught me off-guard just a few minutes ago and I haven't a clue how long ago they nixed it. To me personally, it seems like 12s of increase holy dmg isn't worth the Templar's verdict you'd lose for it.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Kelaan » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:37 am

Bashe wrote:To me personally, it seems like 12s of increase holy dmg isn't worth the Templar's verdict you'd lose for it.

The Inquiry of Faith talent gives ret paladins a 150% Inquisition duration. This means that Inquisition lasts 18 seconds.

When we no longer proc free TV's all the time, but rather they seem to act like the Eternal Glory procs (if I understood Planned Changes to Ret Mastery correctly), then it might be less appealing to use Inquisition. I don't know.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Rachmaninoff » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:16 pm

Mannstein wrote:
Rachmaninoff wrote:shouldn't hit take top priority? its not gonna mean shit if you cant hit your target.
"..."
I started working on hit and now I have 8.02%. I've had to gem primarily to hit. ..."


Think this way... 900hit rating gives you aprox. more 8%damage (no misses) 900stg gives you more that 8% damage....
Anyway...
You almost never should gemm to hit...
Reforge is the way,
Item doesn't have hit, reforge to hit
Item has hit, reforge the other stat to expertise

(If the socket bonus is +20stg, you should gem with a orange or a purple, if it's not +40stg all the way)

I completely understand that Str is our most important stat for dmg. however, at this point since most of our gear has low stats (such has hit). reforging only gimps your already low crit, haste, and mastery. and yes mastery isn't that important until the next patch.

and from what your saying, it can be interrupted as if you can in theory do 8% more dmg than the person who is hit capped. however, this means your are missing for at least 8% of the time mean you and the person who is hit capped are doing the same amount of dmg. and you can miss more often the less hit you have. I had 2.8% hit and I was missing 9% of the time when I did a heroic the other night. that could also be from a lack of expertise.

if someone could prove my point that would be awesome, preferably with some numbers.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Kelaan » Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:51 pm

Rachmaninoff wrote:
Mannstein wrote:You almost never should gemm to hit...
Reforge is the way


I completely understand that Str is our most important stat for dmg. however, at this point since most of our gear has low stats (such has hit). reforging only gimps your already low crit, haste, and mastery.


You missed his point entirely. Strength is Ret's primary driver, more valuable than more than two of any other rating. We can gem for it to get more than our gear has, but we cannot reforge into str. Using a non-Str gem in a gem slot (or even a Str/X hybrid often times) is a WORSE trade than using pure Str in sockets, with the exception of Very Good bonuses or meeting the meta gem requirements.

Hit and Expertise can be achieved by reforging all of our other stats (which are worth about half or 2/3 as much as either hit or expertise) into Hit and Expertise. Any time you replace a Str gem with a Hit or Expertise gem, you're losing damage in the long run. Using gems to cap your hit or expertise merely makes your damage more reliable for short term bursts, but it's generally better to reforge crit, haste, and mastery into hit and expertise.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Njall » Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:00 pm

I never expect it.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Dantriges » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:44 pm

As the OP is about if we hate Inquisition, yes I do. I hate all this proc management, three cds, the 20% hammer, one buff short running and so on.

Perhaps I am slowly getting old and my mental bandwidth decreases but watching all this stuff and my surroundings, executing the tactics etc. is certainly taxing it.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Leuthas » Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:20 am

Kelaan wrote:
Bashe wrote:To me personally, it seems like 12s of increase holy dmg isn't worth the Templar's verdict you'd lose for it.

The Inquiry of Faith talent gives ret paladins a 150% Inquisition duration. This means that Inquisition lasts 18 seconds.

When we no longer proc free TV's all the time, but rather they seem to act like the Eternal Glory procs (if I understood Planned Changes to Ret Mastery correctly), then it might be less appealing to use Inquisition. I don't know.

Inquisition is a 30 second buff with 3/3 Inquiry of Faith. I'm guessing there's a typo or something in your post. :wink:

And this is the latest Mastery setup on the PTR as I can see:
"•Hand of Light (Mastery): A percentage of the damage done by Templar's Verdict, Crusader Strike, and Divine Storm is done as additional Holy damage. This Mastery now grants a 2.1% increase to Holy damage per mastery, down from 2.5%."
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby rodos » Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:15 pm

Leuthas wrote:And this is the latest Mastery setup on the PTR as I can see:
"•Hand of Light (Mastery): A percentage of the damage done by Templar's Verdict, Crusader Strike, and Divine Storm is done as additional Holy damage. This Mastery now grants a 2.1% increase to Holy damage per mastery, down from 2.5%."

This was somewhat expected. Theorycrafting on the original PTR value (2.5%) put the new mastery way ahead of crit and haste. Mastery is supposed to be a good stat, but not to the point of making the others junk.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Mannstein » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:13 am

rodos wrote:
Leuthas wrote:And this is the latest Mastery setup on the PTR as I can see:
"•Hand of Light (Mastery): A percentage of the damage done by Templar's Verdict, Crusader Strike, and Divine Storm is done as additional Holy damage. This Mastery now grants a 2.1% increase to Holy damage per mastery, down from 2.5%."

This was somewhat expected. Theorycrafting on the original PTR value (2.5%) put the new mastery way ahead of crit and haste. Mastery is supposed to be a good stat, but not to the point of making the others junk.


The issue (that i fail to grasp) is that if this stats (crit/hast/mastery) are all iqual, what is the need for reforging?
I mean, i understod and liked aiming to a stat till you get aprox. "X" value, then reforge for the others...
Currently the only need i have for reforging, if for dropping expertise, hast/crit is "almost" irrelevant...

This is absolutly QQ, but from T10 to T11, retri lost half the fun for me... (And i liked after the patch)
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