Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby Cervana » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:07 am

First of all i'd like to thank you Vyx for this awesome guide, helped me sort out better
Stat priorities and effectively the BiS decisions im taking...
One question...
From what i understand, BiS belt atm is the Jumbotron Belt from the Omnitron DS http://www.wowhead.com/item=59117
But, according to some incoming patch notes for 4.0.6, http://www.wowhead.com/patchnotes=4.0.6-ptr *under Proffesions*
BS items such as http://www.wowhead.com/item=55059 will get a socket and ofc a socket bonus...
According to that change wouldnt the BS belt pass the Omni one, due to its already higher Avoidance stats,
that only get overthrown by Jumbotron's socket&bonus?
Dunno if its a dumb question or w/e but id figure i'd ask since some ppl could have the same thoughts...
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby lythac » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:51 am

Cervana wrote:Dunno if its a dumb question or w/e but id figure i'd ask since some ppl could have the same thoughts...


It isn't a dumb question.

Items have an item budget and currently the epic crafted items have the correct budget. In able to add a socket to the crafted items you have to lower stats already on the item, else the item is then overbudget. Socket bonus is just that - a bonus to the item that does not eat into item budget.

It is fairly easy to see on these 2 belts, the BS belt has 40 more rating compared to the socket on the other belt. Sockets are worth 40 rating.

My bet would be the BS belt loses 30 mastery and 10 dodge to keep it different to the drop and have a different color socket with a different bonus.
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby Cervana » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:00 pm

Ah... I c...
Tbh its the first time to stumble on the Stat Budget concept for me... >.<
then again its also the first time i have to worry about BiS n stuff...
Thanks alot :D
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby Fiaraa » Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:32 am

I'm not sure if they're on the test realm yet, but does anyone know what colour socket the belt is getting/the bonus?
Or if the shield is intended to get a socket as well?
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby meph » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:03 am

hey guys,

what is your view on the matter of choosing shoulders and helm, right now i'm not sure which is stronger, i definitely want to have either set shoulders or head so that i can have 4 piece set bonus, but both of the offset choices are stronger tanking pieces

so it comes to whether i want to have
Daybreaker Helm + Reinforced Sapphirium Shoulderguards
or
Reinforced Sapphirium Faceguard + Heaving Plates of Protection

The stats are

82 Str
168 Mastery
168 Parry
213 Dodge
128 Hit
Red Gem slot

socket bonus +30 mastery on the daybreaker helm
socket bonus +15 stamina on the shoulders that might end up not being used

or

60 Str
169 Mastery
129 Parry
281 Dodge
113 Hit
Blue Gem slot

socket bonus +45 sta on faceguard
socket bonus +10 sta on heaving plates

---
so far BoE shoulders + faceguard look like a better choice, but the BoE shoulders do not have Heroic version so it might be a waste when we actually get to kill Heroic Valiona (i may be thinking too much into the future here:) )

What do you think
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby vexryn » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:30 pm

For those following the guide, I just finished a massive re-write of the gearing up guide, including discussion of all of the various epics available and where to spend your gold.

Hope the updated version is helpful. As always, let me know if you see any problems or errors! Thanks!
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby econ21 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:17 am

That's a very comprehensive, insightful and well presented guide, Vexryn, thanks!

My only comment is that, next time you revise it, you might think about listing the items from best to worst instead of the opposite. It's more intuitive to me, at least, and I guess over time most people will look increasing towards the BiS.
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby vexryn » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:50 am

econ21 wrote:My only comment is that, next time you revise it, you might think about listing the items from best to worst instead of the opposite. It's more intuitive to me, at least, and I guess over time most people will look increasing towards the BiS.



In point of fact, I've been planning to do this anyway, so I went ahead and did it. Gear is now sorted from highest ilvl to lowest. In addition, all gear has exact ilvl indicated for easily reference (especially now that there are multiple levels of epics that have different ilvl, so color alone is not an indicator).

Enjoy!
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby econ21 » Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:17 am

Wow, even nicer - tx. It's very easy to scroll down the list and compare the items. If you want to sort within item levels, you might consider a ranking based on secondary stats:

(mastery + avoidance) > (2x avoidance) > (mastery+threat) > (avoidance + threat)

As there seems to be consensus that threat is not an issue at the moment and mastery is better than parry/dodge for both damage reduction and combat table coverage. Gem slots and bonuses may complicate things though.

The reputation boots need moving up a notch - they are 359 not 346 (the colour is right, just not the ilvl and ranking).

You might want to add a couple of epics with agility and mastery:

Don'Rodrigo's Fabulous necklace:
http://www.wowhead.com/item=67137

and the Signet of the Elder Council:
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62362

The latter is nice, as it is a reputation item and better than most pre-raid alternatives. The necklace is BoE and better than raid alternatives outside of heroic modes imo. I just spent a ridiculous sum of gold on the necklace, but looking at your list, don't regret it.
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby vexryn » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:21 am

econ21 wrote:Wow, even nicer - tx. It's very easy to scroll down the list and compare the items. If you want to sort within item levels, you might consider a ranking based on secondary stats:

(mastery + avoidance) > (2x avoidance) > (mastery+threat) > (avoidance + threat)

As there seems to be consensus that threat is not an issue at the moment and mastery is better than parry/dodge for both damage reduction and combat table coverage. Gem slots and bonuses may complicate things though.



Yeah, I had actually started doing this informally in a few places when I was reworking the list, with plans to go back and do a more substantive re-sort on this basis in a few days. I don't want to spend a ton of time 'debating' exactly whether piece A is better than piece B, but a general sort with a standard and reasonable formula would, I think, still be helpful for many.
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:41 am

I'm pretty sure now that none of the Heroic versions of 5-man trash drops were implemented in game. Noticed this after spending weeks seeing lots of Heavy Geode Mace on the AH and not a single Heroic version of it.

Heroic Shroud of Dark Memories, Heroic Temple Band (probably the reason it was never itemised correctly), and Heroic Impetuous Query can all be removed from the list.
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby vexryn » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:01 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:I'm pretty sure now that none of the Heroic versions of 5-man trash drops were implemented in game. Noticed this after spending weeks seeing lots of Heavy Geode Mace on the AH and not a single Heroic version of it.

Heroic Shroud of Dark Memories, Heroic Temple Band (probably the reason it was never itemised correctly), and Heroic Impetuous Query can all be removed from the list.



These items are flagged on my list with a footnote that they don't appear to be implemented in-game. I've gotten a lot of questions about them because they are found in the wowhead.com database, though, so I'm more inclined to include them with a footnote rather than remove them and have a list that doesn't match what comes up in a wowhead search.
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby Incite. » Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:57 pm

I recently looted this Icebane Hauberk http://www.wowhead.com/?item=67143 I should have gone with my first instinct and given it to a DK. Instead I decided to reforge it and gem it and see how it would work in my gear set.

In order to get it to provide the same combat table coverage coverage as Chestplate of the Steadfast http://www.wowhead.com/?item=58101 I gain 2k health and some hit. I reforged the parry to mastery and gemed it with mastery and stamina.

It might be a good chest for a DK with all the parry on it but I don't think it deserves a spot on the gear list above the Chestplate of the Steadfast. The mastery is just to good for Protection Paladins.

Hopefully I'm missing something. This is the formula I'm using to find my combat table coverage:

/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Need 102.4 combat table coverage. Currently at: "..string.format("%.2f", GetDodgeChance()+GetBlockChance()+GetParryChance()+5))

I get 81.66 with my mastery trinket and 78.47 with stamina for Chestplate of the Steadfast http://www.wowhead.com/?item=58101
I get 81.00 with my mastery trinket and 77.85 with stamina for Icebane Hauberk http://www.wowhead.com/?item=67143

Here is my armory http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/hydraxis/incite/simple

Guess I'm just a little disappointed that its not really a upgrade.

edit.

I also tried reforging the hit to mastery hoping that the extra parry would bump it up on the coverage on the combat table but it actually lowers them.
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby vexryn » Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:03 am

Incite,
I'm sorry that you're not happy with the outcome of the 'upgrade' from the Hauberk. There are a pieces where the higher ilvl piece is debated as to whether or not it's "better" relative to the lower ilvl piece that has our beloved avoidance/mastery itemization to fill the combat table. I think the two most noticeable in this regard are the Icebone Hauberk vs [346] Chestplate of the Steadfast as you've observed, and also the Ironstar Amulet vs the lower-but-better-itemized The Lustrous Eye (from Justice Points) or Carrier Wave Pendant (drop).

As you observed, the Icebone Hauberk gives you slightly lower combat table coverage, in return for about a 2k health upgrade (depending on exactly how you're gemming and what you're doing with going for socket bonuses). There are some who will make the case that while bigger combat table coverage is nice, having a fraction of a point more in coverage may not make the difference; 2k health on a progression boss (whatever is progression to you) may save a wipe. And of course, not all hard-hitting content cares about your combat table (e.g., 75k magic breath attacks and 100k "crackle" damage hits from Nefarian as your most notable regular-mode example). Other fights only care about your avoidance and trivialize your mastery (e.g, Chimaeron). In those fights, pieces like Icebone Hauberk feel more relevant again, albeit for different reasons (its stamina in one case, its non-mastery raw avoidance in the other).

So I will certainly grant that there's some room for debate here, and a lot of people are pushing for raw combat table coverage (including me for many fights, especially now that we're working on heroic Halfus - yowie, WTB more mastery!!). But stamina isn't totally dead (nor is armor, and there is a modest but not irrelevant armor different on the chest pieces as well), and there is still what I consider healthy debate on which of these pieces is "better" (or at least, which is better on which fights). This is why, for the time being, I've left the list uniformly still sorted by ilvl first, and only sorted for itemization within each item level grouping.
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby Maelsstrom » Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:53 pm

My 2c:

The Icebone Hauberk is a better piece than the Chestplate of the Steadfast. Reforged, it grants more net damage reduction, more stamina and more threat -- each by a small margin.

Gearing in this game is all about small increments compounding and complementing other players' abilities such that gear improves your success exponentially. Selecting items purely based on combat table coverage is, in my opinion, missing the bigger picture and can lead to an unbalanced and less effective gearset. Consider the available choices: all but one of the 359 chestpieces has hit or expertise. The only one that doesn't is the T11 chest but takes time to build up the 2200 valor points to acquire it, and now that you have a 359 chest, you may be better off buying a different piece as your next upgrade -- haven't looked at your gear. The way I compute the value of a piece of gear for my standard MT set, the T11 chest is a bigger incremental gain over the Icebone Hauberk than the Icebone is over the Chestplate.
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