Quick question about Inq
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Re: Quick question about Inq
theckhd wrote:A more accurate model would try and include Vengeance buildup, maybe by assuming 10% Vengeance accumulation every 2 seconds (...)
If you meant something like Veng=min(0.05*t,1), t being expressed in seconds, don't bother.
During the stationary state, Vengeance can be reasonably approximated by a linear map of time. In the accumulation/decay states, Veng=f(time) isn't even continuous, let alone linear.
Mirydon wrote:I'm not really sure how to read the formula on the Wowhead tooltip.
Use the repo.

tlitp  Posts: 556
 Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:25 pm
Re: Quick question about Inq
tlitp wrote:theckhd wrote:A more accurate model would try and include Vengeance buildup, maybe by assuming 10% Vengeance accumulation every 2 seconds (...)
If you meant something like Veng=min(0.05*t,1), t being expressed in seconds, don't bother.
During the stationary state, Vengeance can be reasonably approximated by a linear map of time. In the accumulation/decay states, Veng=f(time) isn't even continuous, let alone linear.
No, certainly not such a simple linear model. I literally meant a step function, where from t=0 to t=2, you had 0%, t=24 you had 10%, and so forth. I think a step function approximation would be pretty reasonable, given that's how we accumulate it. It will obviously have different step sizes based on combat table results (avoid vs. block vs. unblocked vs. magic), and the steps actually decay away in between swings, but for a very simple model we'd abstract that away and just treat it like a step function. I'm only guessing that 10% is appropriate for a step size; it may be a bad guess.
The point was simply to get a gradient of damage values, so that the first 9 seconds are a little less skewed towards Inquisition. If we evaluate ability damage at 10% Vengeance intervals, and then use a rough, stepfunction approximation of the buildup cycle, I suspect that Inquisition will come out behind by a pretty significant margin. Hopefully large enough that the errors inherent in these approximations aren't significant by comparison.
And of course, there's always the chance that my intuition is wrong, at which point we could think about revising the model, if we wanted to. I think you and I have enough other things to work on right now to make that a low priority, though.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
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Re: Quick question about Inq
tlitp wrote:Mirydon wrote:I'm not really sure how to read the formula on the Wowhead tooltip.
Use the repo.
Ok, this is getting really unfamiliar now, I haven't done any decent math in over 20 years, and have no experience whatsoever in any programming language. But I think I can deduct from the link you gave that the 'holy power' in the Wowhead tooltip of Seal of Truth has nothing to do with our stacks of Holy Power, so I can ignore that. I'll just ignore the Wowhead tooltip altogether on second thought.
Rune Weapon has defeated the hero of the Warmaul, Mogor! All hail Rune Weapon!
 Mirydon
 Posts: 48
 Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:45 pm
Re: Quick question about Inq
Mouse over the words "holy power" in that tooltip; it's talking about spellpower and any Holy school modifiers (such as Inquisition) applying to the Paladin. Yeah, it's misleading, but they didn't bother renaming their variables.
Moo.
 theothersteve7
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 Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:45 am
Re: Quick question about Inq
To calculate Seal of Truth damage correctly, I'm thinking of adding a separate row in my spreadsheet. Ability damage would then be taken from the Dmg column of Theck's ability damage list.
I would calculate SoT separately as such: Dmg*mdf.mehit*Censurestack/5 (melee, SotR and CS) or Dmg*mdf.rahit*Censurestack/5 (Judgement)
 Dmg = Theck's value for SoT in the Dmg column
 mdf.mehit/mdf.rahit being the melee/ranged hit modifier (Theck, I'd like to know the values you use in your model if possible).
 Censurestack = number of Censure stacks on target, since Theck's value is for 5 stacks, divide it by 5 and multiply it by the number of Censure stacks.
I can then multiply that value by 1.3 if Inq is up. Would that be correct?
Another problem I can see in my model is I'm taking misses and hits into account for ability damage since it's incorporated in Theck's Dmg values, but not for Censure stacking. If I would use (Censurestack*mdf.mehit) instead of Censurestack on both SoT and Censure damage, would that be more accurate?
I would calculate SoT separately as such: Dmg*mdf.mehit*Censurestack/5 (melee, SotR and CS) or Dmg*mdf.rahit*Censurestack/5 (Judgement)
 Dmg = Theck's value for SoT in the Dmg column
 mdf.mehit/mdf.rahit being the melee/ranged hit modifier (Theck, I'd like to know the values you use in your model if possible).
 Censurestack = number of Censure stacks on target, since Theck's value is for 5 stacks, divide it by 5 and multiply it by the number of Censure stacks.
I can then multiply that value by 1.3 if Inq is up. Would that be correct?
Another problem I can see in my model is I'm taking misses and hits into account for ability damage since it's incorporated in Theck's Dmg values, but not for Censure stacking. If I would use (Censurestack*mdf.mehit) instead of Censurestack on both SoT and Censure damage, would that be more accurate?
Rune Weapon has defeated the hero of the Warmaul, Mogor! All hail Rune Weapon!
 Mirydon
 Posts: 48
 Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:45 pm
Re: Quick question about Inq
mdf.mehit and mdf.rahit depend on your hit and expertise. For example, you have a base 8% chance to miss a level 88 boss. If your gear set has 2.8% hit, then you reduce that to 5.2%. In that circumstance, mdf.rahit would be 10.052 = 0.9480.
Similarly, mdf.mehit incorporates the 6.5% dodge and 14% parry chances against a level 88 boss, which are mitigated by expertise at 0.25% per point of expertise.
In my sims at low hit/exp (2.8058%, 16.6966 expertise),
mdf.mehit=0.8265
mdf.rahit=0.9481
mdf.sphit=0.9429
Your handling of SoT seems to be correct. Censure cannot miss, so there's no need to modify it for that. At worst, the application of a new stack of Censure can miss, which will make the rampup time slower on average. But for a simple first approximation, we can probably ignore that.
Similarly, mdf.mehit incorporates the 6.5% dodge and 14% parry chances against a level 88 boss, which are mitigated by expertise at 0.25% per point of expertise.
In my sims at low hit/exp (2.8058%, 16.6966 expertise),
mdf.mehit=0.8265
mdf.rahit=0.9481
mdf.sphit=0.9429
Your handling of SoT seems to be correct. Censure cannot miss, so there's no need to modify it for that. At worst, the application of a new stack of Censure can miss, which will make the rampup time slower on average. But for a simple first approximation, we can probably ignore that.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
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Re: Quick question about Inq
theckhd wrote:At worst, the application of a new stack of Censure can miss, which will make the rampup time slower on average. But for a simple first approximation, we can probably ignore that.
If I would multiply the number of stacks by mdf.mehit, wouldn't that accommodate for any missed applications of new Censure stacks?
Rune Weapon has defeated the hero of the Warmaul, Mogor! All hail Rune Weapon!
 Mirydon
 Posts: 48
 Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:45 pm
Re: Quick question about Inq
Not unless you allow for more than 5 stacks. mdf.mehit doesn't limit the total number of stacks, just the rate at which they get applied. It would be more accurate to just apply them more slowly, which is tricky because you'd need finer granularity in your time steps. That's why I suggested you just ignore that for this pass.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
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 Location: Harrisburg, PA
Re: Quick question about Inq
A friend of mine works at the university here and has access to MATLAB, so he got me the values. I'll post an updated spreadsheet as soon as I've entered the values.
Rune Weapon has defeated the hero of the Warmaul, Mogor! All hail Rune Weapon!
 Mirydon
 Posts: 48
 Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:45 pm
Re: Quick question about Inq
So here is the update after the proposed changes: https://spreadsheets0.google.com/ccc?key=tsoMf7X6pVqAU2pMOHkOTfg#gid=0.
Changes are:
Values used are now from Matlabadin r208, running calc_abilitydmg.m, then taking the values from dmgarray1, column 2. No changes have been made to the code except to calculate the damage values for different levels of Vengeance (see below).
To calculate the values for each level of Vengeance, we changed the value in line 5 in calc_abilitydmg.m, from 1 for 100% to 0 for 0% Vengeance.
I calculated 4 different pulls: the first 2 were the base of the argument that lead to all this, the last 2 I made seemed to be the most optimal ones for respectively Inq and SotR. Any suggestions for other pull sequences are welcome.
Melee attacks now happen every 1.75 seconds to account for parry haste and Reckoning procs(player.wswing=1.7456).
Seal procs are now calculated separately and take Censure stacks and miss chance into account.
If I entered all the data correctly, and we can agree on the model as it stands, it seems that the InqExoAS pull generates the most threat. Here's a graph for the first 12 seconds.
Strangely enough, the graph I had when all damage was calculated with 100% Vengeance, looked exactly the same.
Changes are:
Values used are now from Matlabadin r208, running calc_abilitydmg.m, then taking the values from dmgarray1, column 2. No changes have been made to the code except to calculate the damage values for different levels of Vengeance (see below).
To calculate the values for each level of Vengeance, we changed the value in line 5 in calc_abilitydmg.m, from 1 for 100% to 0 for 0% Vengeance.
I calculated 4 different pulls: the first 2 were the base of the argument that lead to all this, the last 2 I made seemed to be the most optimal ones for respectively Inq and SotR. Any suggestions for other pull sequences are welcome.
Melee attacks now happen every 1.75 seconds to account for parry haste and Reckoning procs(player.wswing=1.7456).
Seal procs are now calculated separately and take Censure stacks and miss chance into account.
If I entered all the data correctly, and we can agree on the model as it stands, it seems that the InqExoAS pull generates the most threat. Here's a graph for the first 12 seconds.
Strangely enough, the graph I had when all damage was calculated with 100% Vengeance, looked exactly the same.
Rune Weapon has defeated the hero of the Warmaul, Mogor! All hail Rune Weapon!
 Mirydon
 Posts: 48
 Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:45 pm
Re: Quick question about Inq
Something's grossly wrong with your numbers. My numbers match yours at 0% Vengeance. But whoever ran the code for you screwed up the Vengeance scaling. Your 100% values are smaller than the code's output for 30%.
Here are the appropriate values, with the new Vengeance formula:
In addition, here are two more sequences to consider:
Exo+ASCSJCSConsCSSotRDPSotR(usual 939)
J+ASCSConsCSHWCSSotRDPSotR(usual 939)
J+ASCSConsCS(wait 0.5)JCSSotRDPSotR(usual 939)
The last two simulate a boss that starts far enough away to get two ranged casts off before it reaches you.
Here are the appropriate values, with the new Vengeance formula:
 Code: Select all
Ability 0% 10% 20% 30% 40% 50% 60% 70% 80% 90% 100%
ShoR 8735 9631 10526 11422 12318 13213 14109 15005 15900 16796 17691
CS 5731 6286 6841 7396 7951 8506 9061 9616 10170 10725 11280
JoT 6475 7219 7962 8705 9449 10192 10935 11679 12422 13165 13908
AS 8262 8981 9700 10419 11139 11857 12577 13296 14015 14734 15453
HW 5230 5230 5230 5230 5230 5230 5230 5230 5230 5230 5230
HoW 11148 12010 12871 13732 14594 15455 16317 17178 18040 18901 19762
Exor 6599 7203 7806 8410 9014 9617 10221 10825 11428 12032 12635
SoT 573 631 688 745 803 860 917 975 1032 1090 1147
SoR 535 591 647 704 760 816 873 929 986 1042 1098
SoJ 242 268 293 319 344 370 395 421 447 472 498
Cens 6784 7779 8772 9766 10760 11754 12748 13742 14736 15730 16723
Cons 6362 7025 7688 8352 9015 9678 10341 11005 11668 12331 12994
HotR 1030 1133 1236 1339 1442 1545 1648 1751 1854 1958 2061
HaNova 3719 4159 4598 5038 5478 5917 6357 6797 7237 7676 8116
Melee 1787 1965 2144 2323 2502 2681 2860 3039 3217 3396 3575
In addition, here are two more sequences to consider:
Exo+ASCSJCSConsCSSotRDPSotR(usual 939)
J+ASCSConsCSHWCSSotRDPSotR(usual 939)
J+ASCSConsCS(wait 0.5)JCSSotRDPSotR(usual 939)
The last two simulate a boss that starts far enough away to get two ranged casts off before it reaches you.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
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Re: Quick question about Inq
Changed the values (don't know what happened there), and added more pull sequences. I will start a new topic in the theorycrafting section to post it, because this doesn't really belong here.
Rune Weapon has defeated the hero of the Warmaul, Mogor! All hail Rune Weapon!
 Mirydon
 Posts: 48
 Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:45 pm
Re: Quick question about Inq
Probably a good idea, since we're not done yet. We still have to incorporate Sacred Duty interactions.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
 Posts: 7710
 Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
 Location: Harrisburg, PA
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