New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby StarQ » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:36 pm

My personal feeling is mastery > stamina. Actually the're no bosses with real burst. You don't need a huge number of HP. If your healers need to long to react, they're bad. A huge HP pool need to be healed, you're just burning your healers mana when gemming into stamina. I prefer to stay around 150-160k HP unbuffed. Actually i'm at 55% Block (with trinket proccs I reach 75%+ Block, below 35% HP it's even more). My choice of gemming is: blue - mastery/stamina red - parry/stamina - yellow - mastery.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby Werelass » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:11 am

Just a bit of healer perspective, if it helps. ☺
I realize that stamina vs. mastery as a mana conservation stat varies depending on the progression/gear level/encounter etc. We are currently 5/12, av ilvl in raid around 445-455.
If I understand correctly, Meloree's (EDIT AS NOT TO IMPLY ASSERTION) area of exploration is based on the fact that increased amounts of stamina will give healers more time to use more mana efficient spells. It does make sense, however, I strongly prefer mitigation over EH on my tanks. Reason?
The tank damage can be relatively bursty or relatively smooth.
Due to the changes compared to wrath, tanks are rarely insta-killed within 2 seconds, unless it’s a particularly bad rng, or use of special abilities in a boss fight.
1. If the damage is extra-bursty – for example, breaths, mangles, then it is something that can be planned for and prepared for in advance, including the tank’s own coolddowns. Hence when tank is, say, mangled at magmaw, all healers are aware of it and react accordingly.
2. If the damage is not particularly spikey (probably 90% of the time), extra planning time I found was generally not required. Lifebloom & rejuv is ticking, if a tank is around 95-85% keep topped up with the cheap-as-chips nourish. I found that under normal circumstances I never had to use regrowth – our big-expensive-fast spell, healing touch is quite sufficient if tank drops around 70% - because he is unlikely to drop those 70% in 2 seconds it takes to cast that healing touch. A healer shouldn’t need extra time to decide which spell to use for each particular situation. Unless the fight is completely unknown, it should be drilled into muscle/brain memory.
New methods of healing do take some time getting used to and drilling into your hands/brain the best combination of spells for particular situations, but it shouldn’t take so long as to skew the gearing strategy towards hoarding EH.
Hope this makes sense ☺
Last edited by Werelass on Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:24 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby Meloree » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:26 am

StarQ wrote:My personal feeling is mastery > stamina. Actually the're no bosses with real burst. You don't need a huge number of HP. If your healers need to long to react, they're bad. A huge HP pool need to be healed, you're just burning your healers mana when gemming into stamina. I prefer to stay around 150-160k HP unbuffed. Actually i'm at 55% Block (with trinket proccs I reach 75%+ Block, below 35% HP it's even more). My choice of gemming is: blue - mastery/stamina red - parry/stamina - yellow - mastery.


I have a suspicion that the answer to "stamina vs. mastery" will be different on 10s vs 25s. Or at least, the degree of stacking, and that 25mans will be found to emphasize health to a larger degree.

Werelass wrote:If I understand correctly, Meloree’s premise


If you think I have any "premises" anywhere in this thread, you didn't understand. I don't have a horse in this race, I don't have an opinion that I'm willing to put my name behind and try and defend yet. As far as I'm concerned, I don't have enough information. All I have done in the last several pages is state one fact: Stamina functions to at least some degree as a mana conservation statistic, and it's therefore unhelpful and inflammatory to use terms like "mana sponge" tanking without presenting significantly better evidence than anyone has thus far.

EDIT: Why am I so picky about good posts vs terrible posts in this thread? Because I'm still trying to gather information and make decisions for myself, and I keep hoping this thread will be helpful - but it isn't.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby inthedrops » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:53 am

Figured I'd chime in real quick. We've been playing with some of the hard modes and the value of stamina per Meloree's "theories" are starting to increase in value for me. I understand both sides of the argument and am normally very mastery heavy. Raid damage is REALLY ramping up quickly. It's becoming easier and easier to get into sticky situations. Omnitron Defense System comes to mind.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby snoweagle » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:45 am

I don't think that misunderstanding someone's position constitutes a terrible post.

You're stating that stam can be a factor in saving healer mana, and Werelass is stating that there's plenty of cases in current raid content where that turns out to have little real effect. Both of those claims certainly have a a place in determining the value of the stats.

We may not have massive amounts of heroic raid parses, but if it turns out that heroic raiding needs a different gemming theory than normal raids, and that in normal raiding (which we -do- have data for) gemming choices really don't matter, and what ends up on the stickies is: "it doesn't matter, we checked" then that still needs to be arrived at by real discussion and examination of data/experience from both hardmodes and normal raids, and not just "well in heroic raids it worked out that x stat is better so we assume that's the case for normal raids."
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby exiledknight » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:52 am

snoweagle wrote:I don't think that misunderstanding someone's position constitutes a terrible post.

You're stating that stam can be a factor in saving healer mana, and Werelass is stating that there's plenty of cases in current raid content where that turns out to have little real effect. Both of those claims certainly have a a place in determining the value of the stats.

We may not have massive amounts of heroic raid parses, but if it turns out that heroic raiding needs a different gemming theory than normal raids, and that in normal raiding (which we -do- have data for) gemming choices really don't matter, and what ends up on the stickies is: "it doesn't matter, we checked" then that still needs to be arrived at by real discussion and examination of data/experience from both hardmodes and normal raids, and not just "well in heroic raids it worked out that x stat is better so we assume that's the case for normal raids."



That's exactly the thing however, the advanced section is where all the cutting edge information has always been. Which means normal mode raiding at this point is not the priority. At the same time fwiw our DK tank got home from work 5 min before raid last night and didnt realize he was in his PVP gear until he got wrecked on Nef, so no it really doesn't matter on normal modes.

I have also played with maximizing mastery, and then again with reforging the hell out of threat/tossing on a couple peices of ret gear for farm night, and the healers say they notice no difference. So I think just like WOTLK normal modes, gem whatever you want it really won't matter much.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby snoweagle » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:53 am

Yeah it may very well be that it just doesn't matter and that's fine. The length of this thread suggests that's not obvious to everyone as people seem to want to discuss it. I really think that your raid's particular mix of size, skill, gear and team dynamics are probably going to be the largest determining factors in your stat choices rather than any static properties of the stats themselves compared against each other.

I get that heroic raid discussion should live in at&c, it makes perfect sense for it to be here. However, I think that if it's the only content that should be discussed then that goal should be explicit or people will continue to post their thoughts about non hardmode things in here, and rightly so as there's nothing that says they shouldn't that is't buried 3 pages into some discussion that a poster may or may not have read.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby Meloree » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:04 am

snoweagle wrote:I get that heroic raid discussion should live in at&c, it makes perfect sense for it to be here. However, I think that if it's the only content that should be discussed then that goal should be explicit


The issue, from my perspective, isn't discussion of non-hardmode raid gemming - it's generalization. Attempting to extend one thing into another unrelated thing without demonstrating the correlation.

It's probably not a surprise that this thread is a mess, given the somewhat misleading title which manages to generate readership, and the 5 different styles of content that people are attempting to discuss and generalize between.

This thread should probably be locked, and discussion on the relevant issues broken down into topics that might actually turn out to be relevant and useful to people.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby snoweagle » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:10 am

I'd be behind that course of action
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby Rasmfrackn » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:24 am

Part of my confusion is that AT&C has never seemed like the "hardmode raid discussion" forum, so I don't think that's by any stretch the focus I expect here. It's theorycraft and calculations... i.e. number crunching. Whether I'm doing leveling dungeons or hardmode nefarian the things here should apply.

Obviously something like relative value of stats is going to be different to some extent between those cases, but those cases should end up in the conclusions section of something like this, not as the motivation behind them. IMO. :)

Now, if someone wants to build/run a simulator with those two gemming approaches and a few different damage intake scenarios and show the average, variance, worst-case damage, etc. THAT would probably belong more in this forum than the gearing or raid forums (which is where everything here thus far seems like it should go.)

-- By the by, healers are all somewhat different but now at least they have a consistent baseline of efficient, throughput, and emergency heals... would a reasonably half-baked model that chose something simple like efficient above 30% tank health, throughput between 10-30%, and emergency below 10% be accurate? I wouldn't really want to model all the individual healers' tools, is the thing, but this seems like a tenable approach. I loves me some MATLAB, but I wouldn't want this to blow up into the sister of Theck's project on the damage intake side. :)

-- By the by 2, post 1000! whee.
Last edited by Rasmfrackn on Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby snoweagle » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:29 am

in an attempt to help the confusion I've made a thread for gemming in normal raids over in the gear forum. Maybe it still belongs in at&c, it depends on what shape (if any) it takes.

anyone who wants to discuss how they gem and why there is welcome to:

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... =viewtopic
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby theckhd » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:40 am

Rasmfrackn wrote:Part of my confusion is that AT&C has never seemed like the "hardmode raid discussion" forum, so I don't think that's by any stretch the focus I expect here. It's theorycraft and calculations... i.e. number crunching. Whether I'm doing leveling dungeons or hardmode nefarian the things here should apply.


I don't think AT&C is limited to discussing hard-mode progression. There's legitimate discussion to be had on all levels of content. However, so far, very little of this thread has been Theorycraft or Calculations. Any thread in this forum ought to be full of parses, combat log snippets, logical reasoning, and MATH. Not blind assertions.

There have been a lot of good posts in this thread that are useful. Insights from tanks that were working on both normal and hard-mode raids at the appropriate gear level. That sort of information is valuable, and worth having in a thread. That's the direction I was hoping this thread would take, and the reason why I haven't locked it before.

The problem, in my mind, is exactly what Meloree pointed out: generalization. What keeps sparking argument is someone wandering into this thread and asserting "this is my experience tanking/healing 5-man heroics, thus gearing for X is better." Which is absurd. Different levels of content have different damage and healing models, and may reward different gemming approaches.

Perhaps Mel's right, and the biggest problem is simply the title of the thread itself. It doesn't make it clear what sort of content we're discussing, so there's no clear direction for new posters that want to contribute their thoughts.

Given what a clusterfuck this thread has turned into, I'm going to close it. I think the discussion of the relative benefits of Stamina and Mastery is worth having, but it needs to have a clear context in mind because the gulf between 5-mans and raids is pretty vast. A discussion of the topic as it pertains to raids, with parses and specific examples of boss burst scenarios, would be very interesting to many of the usual readers of this sub-forum. If someone wants to start a thread like that, be my guest.

Rasmfrackn wrote:Now, if someone wants to build/run a simulator with those two gemming approaches and a few different damage intake scenarios and show the average, variance, worst-case damage, etc. THAT would probably belong more in this forum than the gearing or raid forums (which is where everything here thus far seems like it should go.)


That would definitely belong in AT&C.
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