Quick question about Inq

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Quick question about Inq

Postby Mirydon » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:58 pm

If Inq from 3HP gets cast at time T, will the ability cast at T+12sec (9 GDC's) still benefit from it?
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Re: Quick question about Inq

Postby theothersteve7 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:12 pm

I haven't tested, but I would assume no, given latency and the 3s CS cooldown. You should still be close.

Frankly I haven't run into a situation where Inq is even warranted, though maybe on Maloriak.
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Re: Quick question about Inq

Postby d503 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:23 pm

Inquisition will be available for your next 3 HoPo maneuver (Shield of the Righteous, likely). It will also allow you to refresh with no downtime.
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Re: Quick question about Inq

Postby Mirydon » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:07 pm

I just did some testing myself, using following sequence.
DP - Inq (T) - CS (T+1.5) - J (T+3) - CS (T+4.5) - AS (T+6) - CS (T+7.5) - ShoR (T+9) - CS (T+10.5) - HW (T+12)

Inquisition consistently falls off before Holy Wrath is cast, no matter how low my latency is (30-60ms) and how fast I spam my buttons.

So it seems the answer is no.

d503 wrote:Inquisition will be available for your next 3 HoPo maneuver (Shield of the Righteous, likely). It will also allow you to refresh with no downtime.

That is not an answer to my question, sorry. The next 3HP ability is available at T+9.
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Re: Quick question about Inq

Postby Arcand » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:02 pm

Mirydon wrote:If Inq from 3HP gets cast at time T, will the ability cast at T+12sec (9 GDC's) still benefit from it?


Unless you had some haste, you'd be trying to fit 8 casts into 12 seconds. If one of your keypresses is one attosecond after the ability comes off cooldown, you just failed.

With haste reducing your GCD (does it still do that?) it becomes actually feasible.
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Re: Quick question about Inq

Postby d503 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:23 pm

Mirydon wrote:I just did some testing myself, using following sequence.
DP - Inq (T) - CS (T+1.5) - J (T+3) - CS (T+4.5) - AS (T+6) - CS (T+7.5) - ShoR (T+9) - CS (T+10.5) - HW (T+12)

Inquisition consistently falls off before Holy Wrath is cast, no matter how low my latency is (30-60ms) and how fast I spam my buttons.

So it seems the answer is no.

d503 wrote:Inquisition will be available for your next 3 HoPo maneuver (Shield of the Righteous, likely). It will also allow you to refresh with no downtime.

That is not an answer to my question, sorry. The next 3HP ability is available at T+9.


Yeah, sorry, misread that.

Just curious - What are you trying to optimize by micro-managing that buff to such a degree?

Arcand wrote:With haste reducing your GCD (does it still do that?)


I'm pretty sure it's just for casters, but WoWPedia is very conflicted:

http://www.wowpedia.org/Global_Cooldown#Global_cooldown
This one implies yes but talks about 2.4.0, when haste was separated into melee/spell.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Patch_2.4.0
The patch notes just say for Spell haste the GCD in reduced.

I remember recently someone telling me that it doesn't count for melee, so I don't think it does...just casters & healers.
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Re: Quick question about Inq

Postby Mirydon » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:18 pm

d503 wrote:Just curious - What are you trying to optimize by micro-managing that buff to such a degree?


I'm not really, I'm just in an argument with one of my guild tanks about whether pulling with ShoR or with Inq is better initial threat, and I'm trying to calculate both our sequences.
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Re: Quick question about Inq

Postby theckhd » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:27 am

Arcand wrote:With haste reducing your GCD (does it still do that?) it becomes actually feasible.


For spells. So Exo/HW/Cons will all have shorter GCDs if you stack haste, but nothing else from our usual skill set.

Mirydon wrote:I'm not really, I'm just in an argument with one of my guild tanks about whether pulling with ShoR or with Inq is better initial threat, and I'm trying to calculate both our sequences.


I'd put a lot of money on SotR, though it obviously depends on exactly what time you cast either.
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Re: Quick question about Inq

Postby Arcand » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:08 am

theckhd wrote:
Arcand wrote:With haste reducing your GCD (does it still do that?) it becomes actually feasible.


For spells. So Exo/HW/Cons will all have shorter GCDs if you stack haste, but nothing else from our usual skill set.


Thanks. So, roughly, eight times your normal input delay would have to be less than the GCD reduction on a single Wrath cast because that's the only rotation ability that generates breathing room. My impression is that's pretty unlikely to be the case unless you invest moderately in haste, and that will cost you more than one Inquisitioned ability can make up for.

(Are the cool kids actually using Inquisition? I put it on my bar and have hit it twice, once to see what the cast looks like and once to show somebody else what the cast looks like. "More threat over the next couple seconds" never seems like as good an investment as "immediate threat" or "immediate healing".)
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Re: Quick question about Inq

Postby d503 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:38 am

I mostly use Inquisition on trash packs when there are 3 or more mobs around. Mostly I use it for a DPS boost, rather than a TPS boost.

Handy raid situations include:

1. Halfus whelps.
2. Maloriak adds (especially when you're >3)
3. Conclave green platform adds

...basically, any add situation where HotR is being used and it's not important to stack a bunch of threat into {skull}.

On one of our 25m Halfus kills, my DPS went up to 40k when I popped Inq+AW+Cons and went to town with my rotation as the whelps spawned...pretty powerful stuff when used properly.
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Re: Quick question about Inq

Postby Mirydon » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:06 pm

theckhd wrote:
Mirydon wrote:I'm not really, I'm just in an argument with one of my guild tanks about whether pulling with ShoR or with Inq is better initial threat, and I'm trying to calculate both our sequences.


I'd put a lot of money on SotR, though it obviously depends on exactly what time you cast either.


Any help is welcome, I've made a little timeline spreadsheet with different sequences, using your MATLAB thread damage ability values.
A few things I'm not certain of:
- I'm using 100% Vengeance, I don't know if it would make a difference (or noticeable difference) recalculating everything with Veangeance stacking during the timeline.
- Incorporating seal procs, am I doing it right?
- I'm allowing 1.5 seconds runtime from pre-combat distance (out of aggro range) to melee range, I don't know if that's possible.
- Censure, am I doing it right?
- I suck reasonably at math, maybe it's just all wrong...

Open for anyone's comments, corrections, tips, criticisms...

Here's the spreadsheet: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ApevROGqFVNNdGl6aF9KYXlJZWhDSmtCUWczanQ3NUE&hl=en
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Re: Quick question about Inq

Postby theckhd » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:28 pm

Assuming 100% Vengeance is definitely going to give you skewed results. For example, AS, Judgement, SoT procs, Censure, and Cons all scale with AP. Since you won't have 100% Vengeance on the pull, this modeling would overvalue the interaction of those abilities with Inquisition during the ramp-up period.

You seem to be modeling Censure stacking already, though it ticks damage every 3 seconds, not 1.5. Consecration ticks every 1 second, not 1.5. I don't see SoT in the spreadsheet, so I don't know if you're modeling that at all.

A more accurate model would try and include Vengeance build-up, maybe by assuming 10% Vengeance accumulation every 2 seconds and adjusting the instantaneous damage values of each ability accordingly. That would require recalculating each ability's damage at each Vengeance level, which is something well within the capabilities of the MATLAB code. If you want those numbers, I can very quickly crank them out for you.
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Re: Quick question about Inq

Postby Mirydon » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:01 pm

I'd love those numbers, thanks. Would it make a relative difference in total threat values between the different sequences, or just in absolute values?

On SoT procs, I was under the impression that the Net column in your damage abilities table incorporated those, so I used those. I deducted the Dmg damage from your table to get the Holy portion that gets buffed by Inq on melee hits and CS, so their damage becomes Net+(Net-Dmg)*0.3 when Inq is up.
I'll change the Censure and Consecration ticks.
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Re: Quick question about Inq

Postby theckhd » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:02 pm

Ah, I see. That won't model SoT ramp-up properly then, because the Net column includes an SoT proc with a 5-stack of Censure. You'd have to scale that accordingly as well. I'll see if I can't generate that data for you some time tomorrow.
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Re: Quick question about Inq

Postby Mirydon » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:55 pm

Edit: ignore everything below.

Hmm, I probably have to calculate Censure and SoT for each stack of Holy Power (HP) as well? I'm not really sure how to read the formula on the Wowhead tooltip.

- Censure=0.01*HP.0193*AP*5.Is that correct? Is that per stack? Would that make a Censure tick with no HP = 0.01*0.0193*AP*5 per stack?
- SoT proc=1+0.223*HP.142*AP would mean a proc with 2HP up would do 1+0.223*2.142*AP damage? Should I average this out for each ability able to proc SoT based on the proc chance? This would add (Sot proc)*(proc chance) to each ability, calculated for #HP and value of AP at time of hit?
- What's the SoT proc chance? Haven't come across it yet.
Last edited by Mirydon on Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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