So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:46 am

Which is fine, for a threat set. Except that what you're doing isn't considered "normal". So people start go "WTF is so wrong with me that I can't hold aggro off someone who's doing 25k dps and yet this other guy can."
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Malthrax » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:47 am

Carbonite wrote:5 Mans, Heroics and just questing... pull 1-2 mobs and mana is empty...


Questing & Solo you should only ever be using Seal of Insight, and do not Consecrate - just do the "normal" prot tanking rotation and you will never EVER run out of mana.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Njall » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:50 am

Say, anyone want to buy some of my delicious mana pots? Very cheap!
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Malthrax » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:50 am

Njall wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:
They're 17-19k dps on the pull with all their nasty cds up, but they'll drop to 12-14k overall, with some spiking around 15k.


Well, after the front-end loading is over, you can probably switch over to SoI if you are so inclined. Or you can tell your DPS to stop being dickish.


Seal of Truth isn't going to help if you have a 20k mage blowing cooldowns on the pull. The Censure ticks are nice, but they're not THAT great, and they take a good 12-15 seconds to get rolling.

I'm with Njall, tell your DPS to quit strokin' their meter-peens, or let 'em eat a few dirt naps.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:54 am

Oh I let them die if I'm too busy rounding up mobs. It grates on me, but I don't care if I'm losing threat on stuff like that. They know they go a bit nuts sometimes.

My whole point was that using seal of insight 100% of the time is just plain stupid. You can't run a comfortable dungeon using seal of insight without losing a great deal of the mobs to begin with (unless you go apeshit and gear for every threat stat I suppose, like the guy above). And really, no one wants to languish in a heroic. I'd rather the dps were able to dps right away rather than waiting for the tank to get EVEN MORE threat up on their targets just because the tank is using SoI.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby BlackNet » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:19 am

No sir, what I am doing is not "normal" by no means but it does work and it's very effective. I tell everyone that the new content we need to be multitasking during combat, able to shift focus, fight while moving yet unleash the max damage possible while taking the least damage possible.

I have plenty of mana to go around and wish we had some way to transfer mana to the healer when needed, even if it was once per x minutes it would be sweet.

Hand of Protection is the most interesting ability we have in our stockpile, seldom used and hardly understood by most I would wager. Hand of Salvation is another. I find myself using Hand of Freedom quite often now which is good.

I have seen it countless times where a mage, DK, rogue, etc... pulls off the tank not just at the start but well into the fight.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:27 am

I liked when Lay on Hands gave your target mana. That was nice.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Flex » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:07 pm

Nikachelle wrote:My whole point was that using seal of insight 100% of the time is just plain stupid. You can't run a comfortable dungeon using seal of insight without losing a great deal of the mobs to begin with (unless you go apeshit and gear for every threat stat I suppose, like the guy above). And really, no one wants to languish in a heroic. I'd rather the dps were able to dps right away rather than waiting for the tank to get EVEN MORE threat up on their targets just because the tank is using SoI.


I think you're overestimating the power of Seal of Truth in relation to threat generation here. Didn't you just switch to a Grand Crusader spec? That is an awesome talent for having things glue to you in a heroic.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:12 pm

Flex wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:My whole point was that using seal of insight 100% of the time is just plain stupid. You can't run a comfortable dungeon using seal of insight without losing a great deal of the mobs to begin with (unless you go apeshit and gear for every threat stat I suppose, like the guy above). And really, no one wants to languish in a heroic. I'd rather the dps were able to dps right away rather than waiting for the tank to get EVEN MORE threat up on their targets just because the tank is using SoI.


I think you're overestimating the power of Seal of Truth in relation to threat generation here. Didn't you just switch to a Grand Crusader spec? That is an awesome talent for having things glue to you in a heroic.

I did, but I don't find I utilize it much. Or that it comes off CD nearly early enough to use in the rotation at a well placed time.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Flex » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:16 pm

Nikachelle wrote:I did, but I don't find I utilize it much. Or that it comes off CD nearly early enough to use in the rotation at a well placed time.


Do you do the rotation while tanking trash packs? If so you might want to break that habit to utilize it more.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Otuel » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:26 pm

BlackNet wrote:I have plenty of mana to go around and wish we had some way to transfer mana to the healer when needed, even if it was once per x minutes it would be sweet.


I imagine that this is the drawback to the tactic that you are using. Maximize threat at the expense of mitigation, take more damage, healers spend more mana. If your healers aren't going OOM in the middle of a fight then it's not a problem.

I'm going the other route to try and help out the healers. I'm OK with the fight lasting a little bit longer since I know that heals are in good shape. That and my dps are not quite as twitchy with the cool-downs on the pull. That just doesn't make sense to me.

-Ot
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:26 pm

Flex wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:I did, but I don't find I utilize it much. Or that it comes off CD nearly early enough to use in the rotation at a well placed time.


Do you do the rotation while tanking trash packs? If so you might want to break that habit to utilize it more.

Yeah I use "the rotation" while tanking trash. I feel weird not using Crusader Strike or Hammer every other move. I'm guessing that's something I need to stop eh?
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:27 pm

Otuel wrote:That and my dps are not quite as twitchy with the cool-downs on the pull. That just doesn't make sense to me.

-Ot

The sooner they use it, the sooner it's back up again. I understand that point at least.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Flex » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:34 pm

Nikachelle wrote:Yeah I use "the rotation" while tanking trash. I feel weird not using Crusader Strike or Hammer every other move. I'm guessing that's something I need to stop eh?


It is more breaking your rotation to use the GC proc. On stationary bosses GC has lower value. But getting a AS>HotR>AS is a pretty big threat boost for trash.

As for DPS blowing cooldowns for me it is an issue with Judgement missing on the pull followed up by the emergency AS missing as well that throws me off. Which is probably why I value hit more than expertise.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby BlackNet » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:46 pm

Flex wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:Yeah I use "the rotation" while tanking trash. I feel weird not using Crusader Strike or Hammer every other move. I'm guessing that's something I need to stop eh?


It is more breaking your rotation to use the GC proc. On stationary bosses GC has lower value. But getting a AS>HotR>AS is a pretty big threat boost for trash.

As for DPS blowing cooldowns for me it is an issue with Judgement missing on the pull followed up by the emergency AS missing as well that throws me off. Which is probably why I value hit more than expertise.


What is worth noting here is I use GC not when it's up but I save it for interrupt control. I.e. Baron in SFK (first boss) I normally get stay of execution and I suspect that if I make a few tweaks here and there I could possibly interrupt everything he does with avenging shield.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Otuel » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:47 pm

Nikachelle wrote:
Otuel wrote:That and my dps are not quite as twitchy with the cool-downs on the pull. That just doesn't make sense to me.

-Ot

The sooner they use it, the sooner it's back up again. I understand that point at least.


Ah. Well, I see the reasoning. But, If they just wait, say, 10 seconds it gives the tank all the time they need. They are gambling on the timing of the fight. They are hoping they can get (pulling numbers out of a**) three cool-downs off when they would have only been able to squeeze two in if they waited that 10 seconds. Of course that last one will be coming in at the end of the fight when the boss has only a few seconds left to live anyway. And if the timing doesn't line up then it would make no difference.

There must be more to it than that because I don't see that benefit being worth the risk of pulling agro or the pressure on the healer mana pool of the tank being maxed to threat.

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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:00 pm

Otuel wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:
Otuel wrote:That and my dps are not quite as twitchy with the cool-downs on the pull. That just doesn't make sense to me.

-Ot

The sooner they use it, the sooner it's back up again. I understand that point at least.


Ah. Well, I see the reasoning. But, If they just wait, say, 10 seconds it gives the tank all the time they need. They are gambling on the timing of the fight. They are hoping they can get (pulling numbers out of a**) three cool-downs off when they would have only been able to squeeze two in if they waited that 10 seconds. Of course that last one will be coming in at the end of the fight when the boss has only a few seconds left to live anyway. And if the timing doesn't line up then it would make no difference.

There must be more to it than that because I don't see that benefit being worth the risk of pulling agro or the pressure on the healer mana pool of the tank being maxed to threat.

-Ot

And that right there is the difference between decent players and amazing players. An extra cooldown, for even the remaining 10 seconds of a boss' life can make the difference between a kill and a wipe. Every GCD does count and the sooner your CDs are back up, the sooner you're more likely to be able to eek out more dps for that progression kill. (Talking about raids here, not heroics though.)
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Flex » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:06 pm

Nikachelle wrote:And that right there is the difference between decent players and amazing players. An extra cooldown, for even the remaining 10 seconds of a boss' life can make the difference between a kill and a wipe. Every GCD does count and the sooner your CDs are back up, the sooner you're more likely to be able to eek out more dps for that progression kill. (Talking about raids here, not heroics though.)


And if you waste your opening cooldown because you shoot your wad on the pull and spend half of it not casting while the tank makes up for you over doing it do you accomplish anything?
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:13 pm

Flex wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:And that right there is the difference between decent players and amazing players. An extra cooldown, for even the remaining 10 seconds of a boss' life can make the difference between a kill and a wipe. Every GCD does count and the sooner your CDs are back up, the sooner you're more likely to be able to eek out more dps for that progression kill. (Talking about raids here, not heroics though.)


And if you waste your opening cooldown because you shoot your wad on the pull and spend half of it not casting while the tank makes up for you over doing it do you accomplish anything?

I'll admit it's a tedious balance. And I wish my hunter MDed without me yelling at him in every raid. :(
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Njall » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:18 pm

Nikachelle wrote:I'll admit it's a tedious balance. And I wish my hunter MDed without me yelling at him in every raid. :(


Yes, we have a problem with that too. Hunter can't be bothered, according to a relayed private chat. Fortunately, we have a very good rogue who ToT's regularly. And the 'lock NEVER EVER makes rocks without prompting. Ever. Mages make the yummy pasta. Njall lays down the food. Everyone has a job to do. They should do it.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:31 pm

Njall wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:I'll admit it's a tedious balance. And I wish my hunter MDed without me yelling at him in every raid. :(


Yes, we have a problem with that too. Hunter can't be bothered, according to a relayed private chat. Fortunately, we have a very good rogue who ToT's regularly. And the 'lock NEVER EVER makes rocks without prompting. Ever. Mages make the yummy pasta. Njall lays down the food. Everyone has a job to do. They should do it.

Mine's not that he can't be bothered, he just literally forgets. And has done for about a year. lol
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Barathorn » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:02 pm

It is probably important to consider what 'level' of gear you currently have and more importantly, the threat your DPS is putting out. Myself, I am having few problems with using SoI but then I don't have DPS hitting the levels that Nikachelle has. When I do I will consider my options from that point.

Remember it is down to you as an individual tank to know what you need to do to maintain threat while easing as much of a load as you can on your healers. There isn't a definitive answer to the question of what you should always use, you as an individual need to take a decision and run with it.

While I appreciate the issue of enrage timers and mana pools within the confines of current content that is being worked on, we should remember that dead dps produce precisely 0 damage.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Rasmfrackn » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:03 pm

In any of the content referenced by the OP, SoT isn't helping enough to justify it over SoI. If a mage somehow spikes 25k (wtf. considering the rating conversions, most peoples' dps went down or stayed the same from 80 epics to 346 pieces. unless that's AE dps on 3-4 targets... in which case SoT doesn't help either and HotR+GC procs are the vast majority of your threat. either way this isn't a raid boss threat thread. :) ) early enough to pull off you, it's probably before SoT is even stacked to 5.

In anything up to and including heroics, SoI is the way to go. Not only are the mana procs on swings relatively large compared to normal regen (900+ mana on a swing proc, same size as a JotW tick basically), but SoI also has the added mana regen of 15% base mana on judge, to help holy paladins too. So, when you judge with SoI up, you also get 3500 mana back immediately.

Personally when I open on a boss, if positioning isn't absolutely volatile from the start I DP for 3 holy power, open up with 2-3 exorcisms (each is 25% of my bar), then shield, then judge, then SotR when he gets to me or i get to him, and i'm back over 50% before I know it, and I'm at 100% mana by the time I get back to judge again. This usually puts me around 150k-180k threat after the SotR if I get a SD crit proc. If I wanted to (i don't) i could drop consecration with impunity at any point in a fight with all the mana regen I have with SoI up. (This is just an example of what I can do with all this mana.)

The only time I start dipping on mana is when I'm in healer mode and just alternating a HoPo generator and WoG, without even taking a GCD to judge. Even that can go about a minute before I bottom out, and I usually can fit a judgement in there somewhere. -- Or, when I'm in cleansebot mode since I can do poisons and diseases and most healers are missing one of those from their cleanse options. Cleanse is expensive as a tank. :)
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Bashe » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:23 am

Carbonite wrote:5 Mans, Heroics and just questing... pull 1-2 mobs and mana is empty...


Cleansing myself gets me OOM very quickly, as does liberal use of consecration. Other than that I never run out of mana; I cannot for the life of me figure out how you would run dry without those.

I do have the glyph for cheaper crusader strike, but I doubt that's the main issue as I don't run dry on HotR either.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Doxa » Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:15 am

To the OP: I you really using the normal rotation? It sounds like (from previous comments in the thread) you're not. I suspect you're neglecting judgement and using consecration or something like that.

Regarding the threat discussion.. Both SoT and SoI are 'the right choice.'

SoI is for tanking heroics with a PUG via the LFD tool. More survivability to help the unknown healer and my own mana pool.

SoT is for tanking heroics with my guildies (well, really just a few folks in my guild - N mentioned mages. Yep).

The fact is, everyone is different and every group is different. Use the tools available to you to generate the threat you need.
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