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New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby theothersteve7 » Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:52 pm

Galtea that's pretty much the crux of the question we're trying to discuss. The fact that there isn't a general consensus indicates that you're probably not too bad off going either way, or even with a mix of the two. Personally I'm getting enough stam to hit 150k and then going straight Mastery.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:08 am

Xenorun wrote:http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/malygos/xenorun/simple

My trinket set up right now, imo is the best possible for the current content. The Tol Barad trinket for a tank is just freakishly good right now, then the Worm, it makes for a good combo imo. This on top of gemming Stam / Mastery gems all over, with a few Parry / Stam to match bonuses seem to be working out just fine for me. I have enough HP atm to not just get insta gibbed, so I think I'm ok there for now.

Really, from what I've seen, stacking Mastery / Stam gems, with one (or two depending) Mastery trinkets seems pretty awesome. On top of that, I typically dont even use the "tank" flask of 300 Stamina, as I find the Mastery Elixir + the Resistance Elixir to outweigh a measily 300 Stamina. It is a lot more expensive though, especially on progression fights. But those are the fights where it matters most, so why not use the gold for something useful?

Also I imagine when we finally are able to "block cap", we still wont gun for pure stamina. We'll start going more for either pure Avoidance (parry / dodge) or threat stats (by that time DPS should be pushing it a lot more then they do atm, making threat stats much more valuable).



I completely agree with your set up and will personally be re-gemming for mastery once I have the stam trinket. I was wondering though.. I feel like the on use dodge one would be more useful on most encounters than the magmaw one, pending on how often you drop below 35 percent health obviously I'd want both and sub them out for when I wanted that CD, but overall would you agree that the on use dodge trinket is better? I'm also going for about 150k UB, and then regemming for mastery.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby Xenorun » Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:15 pm

Personally, I passed on that trinket you're referring to, to my druid tank buddy. Its not bad, but personally the Magmaw trinket is better simply because you will gain that Mastery proc somewhat frequently, and its more Mastery. I mean its not as if you'll be doing it wrong if you get the Use: Dodge trinket, but if you have the choice I'd recommend Mag + TB exalted (for now at least). Generally speaking, I think its the best set up. Situationally other trinkets may be better.

Keep in mind this is all simply my opinion :)
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby StarQ » Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:01 pm

Static Mastery is quite nice, but I prefer
Magmaw Trinket - stamina and mastery below 35& HP
Procelan Crab (hc) - dodge and mastery procc

I really was thinking about buying the Tol Barad trinket but, I like the proccs a bite more. Just my personal feeling.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby Treck » Sun Jan 02, 2011 5:25 am

While the mastery from the TB trinket is nice, the use effect is very situational.
I personally prefer the sta trinkets with "tanking" proccs.
Especially the magmaw trinket.
Obviously you should have the TB trinket in your arsenal to choose from when the right fight arise.
The alchtrinket is very nice however :P
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby inthedrops » Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:56 am

I also prefer the two stam trinkets. It didn't take long to get geared to the point where the block from the porcelain crab becomes wasted block rating by as much as 5%. The dodge from the other raid stam trinket off the two dragons (forget name) is around 7%-8% dodge (I believe). That's VERY significant avoidance!
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby aureon » Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:25 pm

.. am i the only one rocking old Armor trinkets? (Saurfang's and Halion's)?
It came out as more EH than 346 stam trinkets, and sure as hell i'm gonna use that.
On the mastery-sta subject, i'm rocking full mastery: It seems to help a lot, especially on doubledrake tanking - I'm not seeing that many spikes of damage, what's often killing me is TDPS>THPS.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby theckhd » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:01 pm

In T11 raid gear (175k health, 36k armor), the EH armor/stam equivalence should be about 7:1. That puts the Petrified Twilight Scale at around 326 stamina in the absence of heals.

However, if you receive a significant amount of healing, it would push that ratio down fairly significantly. It ends up at around 4.6:1 if you receive half your health in healing during the burst window. In that case, the armor trinket is about 492 Stamina worth of EH. However, its proc is much weaker than either of the two ilvl 359 stamina trinkets.

I could see it as a viable alternative to ilvl 346 trinkets though. The downside is that it doesn't help you get into heroics, since its ilvl is so low.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby PsiVen » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:53 am

Treck wrote:While the mastery from the TB trinket is nice, the use effect is very situational.


Well, it's very powerful on the 5ish fights it's applicable for. I would love to have a second stamina trinket choice, but I'm not an Alchemist and none have dropped yet :x
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby Kelaan » Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:01 am

Cragwell wrote:I think a general misconception here is that you are viewing blocking as avoidance. Blocking is not equal to dodge or parry. Blocking is not pure avoidance, its partial avoidance.

I thought parries were now 50% damage, instaed of a fully avoided hit? If that's no longer the case, I missed a memo. (I'll go read more after this.)

So your 8.5% blocking is 3.4% damage avoidance. If you want to trade 12.6% more health for 3.4% more damage avoidance, that's your call.

Interesting point. I was looking at gem options, and going stamina vs stam/mastery in blue slots was going to trade basically 2.5% total health for 2.5% extra block percent.

That said, even the trash has instances where you can't avoid the damage, so more health is very nice. Now that I think about this more, I can see some benefit. And yet, I have a hard time walking away from so much mastery. I'll keep some blue gems in my bag and see how it plays out.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby theckhd » Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:06 am

Kelaan wrote:I thought parries were now 50% damage, instaed of a fully avoided hit? If that's no longer the case, I missed a memo. (I'll go read more after this.)


That plan was scrapped before it ever got implemented in beta. Parry is still a full avoid plus a swing timer reduction.

Kelaan wrote:That said, even the trash has instances where you can't avoid the damage, so more health is very nice. Now that I think about this more, I can see some benefit. And yet, I have a hard time walking away from so much mastery. I'll keep some blue gems in my bag and see how it plays out.


Starting out, I was going parry/stam, stam, and mast/stam in red, blue, and yellow sockets respectively. Now that I have around 190k health fully-buffed (with stam trinkets), I'm going to start transitioning blue sockets to mast/stam as I upgrade gear. This is subject to change if heroic modes make having more than 190k health advantageous, of course.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby Maelsstrom » Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:51 pm

(Preface: the numbers below are really rough. No spreadsheet, no decimal places, just rough ballpark numbers. I'm going for the order of magnitude here.)

Let's keep in mind the narrow window of what one's potential health pool can be. Items of a given ilvl have the same stamina across all choices (with the exception of trinkets) and itemization of "real" tank items is good enough that we're always better off by equipping a higher ilvl item and reforging threat to survival. There's no reasonable flask option other than steelskin. Enchants for stamina are generally underbudget compared to mastery options (gloves, boots).

That leaves only trinkets and gems for making a major swing on one's health pool. Let's look at how big that window is.

- Trinkets: around 425 stam each (give or take a bit) = 850
- Gems: assume around 6 gems for non-JC's, assume 2/3 of those are red/yellow and 1/3 are blue. 6x(2/3x60+1/3x30) = 300

We're talking about 1150 stamina, which will be 1458 raid buffed, = ~20000 hp. Ie. if you maxxed out stam at 180,000, you'd be 160,000 if you minimized it. It's 11% difference.

If we reitemized all that 1150 stamina into mastery at the ipoints ratio of 1.5:1, we'd get just under 4% damage reduction. I know from running my spreadsheets that avoidance stats lag mastery in value for reducing average statistical damage but not by much (ie. at least 80% effective).

So like someone said above, you can trade ~11% health for at best ~4% less damage reduction of physical/avoidable damage.

Let's further assume 30% of damage is nonphysical (some combination of magical, bleed, or physical but unavoidable/unblockable). That means that over the course of a fight, that 4% is really only 3% reduction in how much healing you require. 3%? Is that it?

In that context, personally, for dead-even trades, I think I'd take the stamina. Conversely, if I picked up a higher ilvl trinket with a good on-use, I wouldn't have any heartburn about ditching a stam trinket.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby theckhd » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:25 pm

Maelsstrom wrote:There's no reasonable flask option other than steelskin.


There's a 300 Agility flask, which is ~1% dodge, and the combination of 225 Mastery (~2.8% block) and 900 Armor from elixirs.

Maelsstrom wrote:Let's further assume 30% of damage is nonphysical (some combination of magical, bleed, or physical but unavoidable/unblockable). That means that over the course of a fight, that 4% is really only 3% reduction in how much healing you require. 3%? Is that it?


The fact that it's a small number does not make it meaningless. 3% of the total healing you take during a fight is a pretty significant amount. You might take 3-4 million damage during a fight; 3% of that is 90k-120k.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby Rhiannon » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:03 pm

@ Maelsstrom:

It's not all about minimising total damage taken over an infinite period of time either, but also about presenting your healers with a smoother damage profile. Typical raid buffed avoidance values I guess are somewhere around 30% miss/dodge/parry and 52% block vs 88 mob. That leaves 18% of swings resulting in normal hits. Change that block % to 60 (which correlates to the 3% damage reduction you're talking about) and now 10% of swings result in normal hits. The chances of taking three unblocked hits in a row with the first setup is 0.58%, while in the second setup, 0.1%. A string of three unblocked hits vs a reasonably hard-hitting boss is going to have your healers reaching for their faster/large/more inefficient heals, and is much more likely to occur in the first setup than the second.

(And yes, I know stats in sig don't really support what I was saying, I happened to be logged out in double stam trink for a particular fight.)
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby snoweagle » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:57 am

Now that I have around 190k health fully-buffed


I'm curious as to what makes 190k the turning point. Obviously it's your chosen spike buffer, but I'm interested in how you arrived at that number specifically...

We're only 5/12 at the moment so maybe there are larger damage spikes ahead I haven't seen that will make it obvious... If there are I'd like to be prepared when we get there as I'm tending away from stam in favour of mastery at the moment...
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