10 vs 25 difficulty

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10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby heuvarius » Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:26 pm

After doing most of the bosses on 10s and then 25s. It occurred to me that Blizzard seems to have tuned the 25s to not be as tight as 10s. We have considerably more difficulties in 10s than 25s as individual mistakes are amplified and far more punishing.

Having said that, my opinion is probably skewed due to doing 10s before 25s. The extra gear/experience certainly helps, but the difference felt a lot bigger than that.

What are you guys finding in terms of the 10 vs 25 balance?
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Belloc » Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:33 pm

It completely depends on the fight in question, I imagine. For instance, you can cheese heroic 25-man Halfus by using 5 tanks and a bunch of disc priests. Good luck doing that on 10-man.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Arianne » Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:04 pm

Anything with an AoE component based on room dimensions is harder on 25s (Ascendant Council, Al'akir).
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Flex » Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:17 pm

Hasn't this been brought up a lot?

Anything that removes a player from the fight tends to be harder in a 10 man encounter while space based fights are more difficult in 25 mans.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Jaitee » Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:58 pm

25s you also tend to have more tools

ie in a 25 you can bring one of all but 5 specs...granted that would give you only 4 healers but im sure u get my point
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Fetzie » Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:30 pm

you should have pretty much all the buffs and debuffs you need in a 10 man group.

what you don't always have is the possibility to use three tanks or 4 healers due to dps constraints. Swapping roles around is easier in a 25 man raid than a 10 man raid. That said, our 10 man group could field a 5 healer, 5 tank group if the warlock and mage sat out :)
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby exiledknight » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:26 pm

From the handful of bosses I have done on 10 man(due to half of our raiders living in the northeast and interent being crap from the storm) it has really seemed to be a complete joke. Other than Maloriak, which the healers couldn't keep a tank up with 9 small adds we used the same strats and completely facerolled everything including cho'gall, which we hadn't killed at the time in 25 man. Although after one night of working on him we had a few 3-5% wipes.

It just seems that bosses and adds health is pretty unbalanced, and I will use cho'gall as an example 33mil on 10 man and 110 on 25 just does not seem scaled proportionatly, and although individual responsibilty is a bigger deal if someone dies, they just do not seem scaled well at all.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Belloc » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:50 pm

exiledknight wrote:From the handful of bosses I have done on 10 man(due to half of our raiders living in the northeast and interent being crap from the storm) it has really seemed to be a complete joke. Other than Maloriak, which the healers couldn't keep a tank up with 9 small adds we used the same strats and completely facerolled everything including cho'gall, which we hadn't killed at the time in 25 man. Although after one night of working on him we had a few 3-5% wipes.

It just seems that bosses and adds health is pretty unbalanced, and I will use cho'gall as an example 33mil on 10 man and 110 on 25 just does not seem scaled proportionatly, and although individual responsibilty is a bigger deal if someone dies, they just do not seem scaled well at all.


This argument doesn't really hold merit and I'll be happy to explain why:

A 25-man raid doesn't usually have 25 top-quality players. Though, they almost certainly do have around 10-15. Had ICC 10 and 25 been tuned to be the same difficulty, my 10-man group (at the time) would've outpaced our 25-man group simply because it had a higher average of quality players.

And if that isn't a good enough reason, consider that you're taking those 10 quality players to content that you've already learned and are farming. Had you actually learned the fights on 10-man, you might have a different opinion. Had your group included less of your highest quality players, your opinion might be different. Simply saying that 10-man was easier than 25-man doesn't tell anyone anything without us actually knowing your players (as in, knowing them well enough that we're in the guild with them).

Our 10-man group is facerolling fights that certainly gave us difficulty while we were learning them. Once you learn a fight and bring 10 great players, of course it's probably going to be faceroll. Bring those same 10 players to fights that they haven't attempted on 10 or 25 and your results will be different.

Personally, I'd love to try the fights on 25-man just so I could offer evidence from the perspective of learning on 10-man and farming on 25-man. Because I honestly do not believe that, aside from a handful of space-limited fights, 25-man is any more difficult than 10.


Just to make a point: By the time I got around to killing heroic 25-man Lich King, it felt pretty faceroll. It wasn't because 10 was more difficult (it certainly wasn't), but simply that I knew the fight intimately after doing it many times on 10-man. You cannot accurately compare difficulties in Cataclysm when you've already learned the fights.
Last edited by Belloc on Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Thark » Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:11 pm

I think everyone is going to have a skewed opinion one way or the other. You really can't learn a fight in both 10 and 25 at the same gear level, and few people are probably doing the fights in both sizes.

Personally, I think I'll refrain from commenting on the numbers side of mechanics. I'm sure if you want to, you can break out numbers to justify one being harder or easier based on damage taken/healer used or available, but I would think that Blizzard can do a good job balancing this. I do believe that you cannot balance things between the two for mechanics such as chain lightning that work on a number of people, or mechanics that require spacing. But each side has its pros and cons.

I will say that I still feel managing a 25 man raid is harder than managing a 10 man raid. Getting 25 good raiders is harder than getting 10 good raiders, and getting 25 people to read a strategy, get online, and pay attention is harder than doing the same with 10. Also, with 25 people, there's more chance for someone's cat/baby/wife to need fed/attention/poop/etc which just creates more downtime.

However, I think that if you theoretically had a group of 10 and a group of 25 who were all equally skilled and equally able to put in the time, that the 25 man group could probably progress faster. I just think that it's easier to manage 10 people than 25, and hence 25's get some added difficulty which is outside the scope of Blizzard to control. This sort of feeds into what I feel is the real dilemma. If you balance WoW so that the average 10 man and average 25 man guild progress evenly, I feel that would require making 25 man mechanics easier than 10 man mechanics. Which would also lead to the case where cutting edge 25 man guilds would have easier fights than 10 man guilds. However if you balance it so that cutting edge 10/25 man guilds have the same difficulty, I think you make it easier for the 10 man guilds compared to 25 man guilds. Basically, I think that Blizzard can account for mechanics/numbers situations to balance things out, but that they cannot account for personnel management situations (nor should they have to) and that attempting to make them equal is not going to work.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby PsiVen » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:21 pm

More and more people are breaking into heroics now, and it's not clear how well progression sites are able to tell the difference between 10/25 man raids. But one thing is clear: there seem to be a lot more heroic kills in 25-man. Has anyone experienced 10-man heroic tuning and can shed some light on this? I find it almost impossible to find information about any of the heroic fights, let alone the 10/25 versions of them. We're about to start attempting them and I'm wondering if it'd be a waste of time when we're just looking to kill Nef this week.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Belloc » Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:01 pm

PsiVen wrote:More and more people are breaking into heroics now, and it's not clear how well progression sites are able to tell the difference between 10/25 man raids. But one thing is clear: there seem to be a lot more heroic kills in 25-man. Has anyone experienced 10-man heroic tuning and can shed some light on this? I find it almost impossible to find information about any of the heroic fights, let alone the 10/25 versions of them. We're about to start attempting them and I'm wondering if it'd be a waste of time when we're just looking to kill Nef this week.

Halfus is tuned very poorly for 10-man difficulty. It's almost not worth attempting, especially if you can't bring 3 tanks.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Meloree » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:08 am

Belloc wrote:Halfus is tuned very poorly for 10-man difficulty. It's almost not worth attempting, especially if you can't bring 3 tanks.


I don't get it, what's so out of line about bringing three tanks? 25-mans have been playing the raid-comp game since there were 25-mans. 10-mans have always been easier, and you've been able to get away with just bringing a standardized setup. Now that 10-mans are "equal difficulty", what's so out of line with expecting some equivalent level of raid flexibility in fight design?

Surely the logic can't be that 10-mans are tuned tightly enough to require raid-stacking antics similar to what 25-man groups do, therefore 10-mans are harder?
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Astronomic » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:50 am

Assuming a standard 10-man is 2 tanks 3 healers and your standard 25 is 2 tanks ~7healers moving 1 dps to tank in a 10 man would be the equivelant of having 3 dps move to tanks in a 25 man. Having 3 tanks in a 10-man is a MUCH bigger impact on the raid than 3 tanking a 25 man.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Zalaria » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:15 am

Astronomic wrote:Assuming a standard 10-man is 2 tanks 3 healers and your standard 25 is 2 tanks ~7healers moving 1 dps to tank in a 10 man would be the equivelant of having 3 dps move to tanks in a 25 man. Having 3 tanks in a 10-man is a MUCH bigger impact on the raid than 3 tanking a 25 man.


Would it suffice to say the difference is... astronomic?
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Treck » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:16 am

Belloc wrote:Halfus is tuned very poorly for 10-man difficulty. It's almost not worth attempting, especially if you can't bring 3 tanks.

On halfus were running 5 tanks in 25man, thats equivalent of bringing 3 tanks in 10man.
10man is, have been, and always will be easier to outcomp than 25man.
Now, all 10man guilds however doesnt always have 3tanks available, does all 25man guilds do?
We "only" have 2 real tanks, and then 3 others who can go tank when needed, all with terrible terrible gear (maybe they have an epic or two but thats about it)
Im sure most 10man guilds have a pally, druid, warrior or DK who can try to gather tankinggear through dungeons.

In terms of difficulty in 10 vs 25, i wouldnt be suprised if some fights turn out easier on 10man, while some fights are harder.
10man difficulty is suppose to be for the 10man raiding guilds.
Meaning you dont always have the perfect setup (cuz of something like 12 raiders in the guild)
And 10man is tuned to be "easier" to make up for the lack of perfection in 10man raids.
This is only for normalmode, as a 10man heroic guild, you should prolly have the possibility to max out.
Heroicmodes are gonna suck when more casual guilds starts going for them, cuz some guilds are gonna steamroll them thanks to just having a good setup for one particular boss, while others have a different setup that they always have gone with, that just turns out to not work that well.
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