"Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Invisusira's playground

Moderators: Aergis, Invisusira

Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Melathys » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:23 am

not being able to live by myself (and in the barracks) is a major reason I didn't re-enlist in the Army. Especially when single e-6 had to live in the barracks (so I didn't even have a promotion to look forward to for living condition improvements)...
Image
User avatar
Melathys
 
Posts: 1910
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:08 pm

Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:38 am

Brekkie wrote:To get back on topic, I think another reason why the 4-person barracks room model has had so much inertia is because of the top brass's paranoia about suicides. The rationale is that if they make sure no junior Marine is ever alone and is constantly surrounded by their fellows, they are less likely to commit suicide, if only because of intervention rather than being less likely to want to in the first place. I'd hazard a guess that this is a big reason why single junior Marines are rarely given permission to live out in town as well.


Amazingly... if they worked on the living conditions... I would think this would be even less of a problem. They could keep their 4 to a room if they want... but give the guys enough space to breath.
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3941
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Doz » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:51 am

Brekkie wrote:I got a chuckle out of the description of the AF barracks. The one time I've been stationed with zoomies, they all got extra pay for having to stay in conditions that were "below Air Force quality", as well as hazardous duty pay (this is in CONUS mind) because they were in close proximity with Marines.

So I guess the moral of the story is, don't join the Marines.


Pretty much an outright lie, either the AF members were lying to you or you are lying to us. Hazardous duty pay for working with marines? Thats laughable. Extra pay for below AF quality...don't be so naive. Yes, the AF generally has better living conditions than the marines, it's common knowledge. And marines will never stop bitching about the fact that they volunteered for thier situation, and others volunteered for a better situation.

Anyway Brekkie, it's obvious by your posts that you could give a flying f**k about servicemans families, so we won't change eachothers minds. I'm just glad I never had to work for someone like you, and pity the people who do. Maybe when you have your own family, your attitudes will change. "The Military didn't issue you a family!" and "Marriage is a privilege not a right!" such a silly way of thinking, join reality.
Doz
 
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:22 am

Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Fivelives » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:09 pm

If they want to keep it at 4 to a room, they could go to college dorm "apartment style" living, where each person gets a small room of their own with a shared living space/bathroom.

Doz, marriage is a privilege. It's either granted by the state (civil unions, e.g. "by the powers vested in me by the state of XXXXX") or by the church (sacrament of marriage), but it can and has been denied to people. Usually because in the course of applying for a marriage license they find that you're too closely related, but it's been denied for other reasons as well; more often in religious ceremonies than in civil ceremonies. Welcome to reality, sir, we truly hope you enjoy your stay. Mind the gap.

I wouldn't say that Brekkie doesn't give a shit about servicemembers families, more that he perceives a discrepancy between barracks housing and base allowance for housing. The military agrees to house, clothe, and feed you for your time in service as well as pay you a salary. The difference is semantics and situations (ESIDD - Every Situation Is Different, Dick), and people should very damn well know what they're getting into when they sign up. Not knowing what you're getting into is irresponsible at best, and pretty damn stupid at worst.
- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.
- A Sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the hell is going on.
- A demolitions specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.
User avatar
Fivelives
 
Posts: 3108
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Brekkie » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:24 pm

I care greatly that people's families can enjoy a good quality of life.
What I have a problem with is when that original, laudable, goal gets perverted by people with an inflated sense of entitlement that feel that because they have a family, they rate special privileges, greater compensation for the same amount of work, and even that they shouldn't have to work as hard as those who do not have families and that single service members should pick up their slack.
I do have a problem when the system is set up in such a way where young service members feel like the best move they can make to better their situation in life is to rush into a marriage they are not ready for, degrading the importance and sanctity of marriage as an institution, and resulting in terrible homes and divorces that affect service members, and worse their children, for the rest of their lives. I actually went and looked up the statistic. Only ONE in EIGHT marriages by junior enlisted Marines lasts at least 5 years.


If the issue is that military pay is not enough to support a reasonable, well-planned family of responsible, hard-working people, then military pay needs to be raised. Across the board.
The point I am making is that trying to discriminate and apply special privileges in the name of supporting families has rampant nasty side effects that are 100% negative and undermine the original purpose.

p.s. I care about this because I'm tired of seeing my 18-year old PFCs run off and marry a jacksonville stripper over the weekend without telling anyone because they feel it is their only way of improving their lifestyle and escaping from the terrible conditions in the barracks. Sadly, this is not an infrequent occurrence, and as a leader I am absolutely powerless to stop it because "everyone is entitled to marry the one they loooooooove", even if they just met last week. I can prevent my junior Marines from being exploited by predatory loan companies, from drinking irresponsibly, from falling into any number of other traps that the young and naive are prone to, but for some reason this one is out of my hands, and then I have PFC Dum with 18 years of child support ahead of him, alimony for the rest of his life, and emptied bank accounts, and the government paying for free medical benefits to some random woman for the rest of her life. All because we're too cheap to build better barracks and too cowardly to hold married service members who skate out of their responsibilities accountable, all in the name of "supporting families".
Theckhd wrote:big numbers are the in-game way of expressing that Brekkie's penis is huge.
Brekkie
 
Posts: 953
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:44 pm

Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Doz » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:15 pm

Ok, apologies if I'm being a prick about getting my point accross, it's my 1st week quitting smoking and I pretty much hate all living things atm.

But, having done my 20 years, I saw many many many more occasions where it was more a disadvantage to have a family than to not have a family. Yes there are some monetary benefits when you are married, but the downside is much worse. Thats why it gets to me when I see someone with the opinion that the married people have it easy, or somehow are getting over on the system, getting more than thier share. I'd trade all that extra pay (haha sooo much) for the time back that I was away from children.

And 18 y/o's thinking with thier little heads and marrying the wrong person, well that is certainly not a marine or military problem, thats an 18 y/o problem ;). That's going to happen whether they are active duty or not. But I can see where you are coming from on that one.
Doz
 
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:22 am

Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Fivelives » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:55 pm

If they're getting married to get out of a bad situation (the barracks), then the obvious solution is to improve the quality of life in the barracks.

A decent(ish) compromise is to enforce a waiting period. You have to wait 6 months to a year before getting married. Marriage is a privilege, not a right - if it were a right, it would be enjoyed by everyone. Ask the gay community if marriage is a right if you need a proof.
- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.
- A Sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the hell is going on.
- A demolitions specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.
User avatar
Fivelives
 
Posts: 3108
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:51 pm

Fivelives wrote:If they're getting married to get out of a bad situation (the barracks), then the obvious solution is to improve the quality of life in the barracks.

A decent(ish) compromise is to enforce a waiting period. You have to wait 6 months to a year before getting married. Marriage is a privilege, not a right - if it were a right, it would be enjoyed by everyone. Ask the gay community if marriage is a right if you need a proof.

Yeah I don't know, and I don't really want to bring a gay marriage debate, but technically from a legal perspective straight people can't marry someone of the same sex and homosexuals can marry someone of the opposite sex, so there is equal treatment. It's a thin argument that will eventually get overturned, but it would trump the ability of military to impose a waiting period across the board at this time. Not to mention how badly that would fail public opinion.

As far as compromises go, that's a pretty bad one, that would only serve to make morale worse, and it is most likely temporary as gay marriage acceptance is probably not far off.

Also, without having seen the statistical sources cited here I throw out the following grain of salt... The divorce rate statistic is generally considered one of the most inaccurate out there, and some of the numbers tossed around earlier in this thread aren't very close. One of the big problems is that the same person can get divorced repeatedly, so you'll see variances depending on how those numbers are accounted for. However, divorce rate for first marriages is probably closer to 40%, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was quite a bit higher in the military where there is some added incentive for marriage.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9667
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Fivelives » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:39 pm

I thought the divorce rate for first marriages was 60%? But that doesn't take into account the length of the marriage - only the overall divorce rate (it includes people who get married and stay married for 20-30 years).

Improving the quality of barracks life would be the solution. The compromise I'm talking about is between the pro- and anti- BAH/BAS factions. It seems like the main argument against the entitlement is that people are getting married on an impulse.
- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.
- A Sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the hell is going on.
- A demolitions specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.
User avatar
Fivelives
 
Posts: 3108
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Brekkie » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:25 am

I thought the divorce rate for first marriages was 60%? But that doesn't take into account the length of the marriage - only the overall divorce rate (it includes people who get married and stay married for 20-30 years).


It also includes all ranks including officers.

When you sort things by rank to just junior enlisted, and then look only at short term success, the ratio gets much more daunting.
Theckhd wrote:big numbers are the in-game way of expressing that Brekkie's penis is huge.
Brekkie
 
Posts: 953
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:44 pm

Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Fivelives » Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:25 am

I meant nationwide. I'm not sure about the 60% number either - that's just what I hear thrown around by the "OMG MORAL DECAY!1" folks. It does sound about right, though.
- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.
- A Sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the hell is going on.
- A demolitions specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.
User avatar
Fivelives
 
Posts: 3108
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:14 am

Fivelives wrote:I meant nationwide. I'm not sure about the 60% number either - that's just what I hear thrown around by the "OMG MORAL DECAY!1" folks. It does sound about right, though.

It's become a common myth. Though I usually hear 50% not 60%, it's generally worded as "X% of all marriages will end in divorce." Since the divorce rate escalates after the first marriage, the divorce rate for first marriages will be smaller than whatever percentage is given, even if that number was accurate. However, the ability to track that in terms of "marriages ending in divorce" is difficult, and technically it's a projection anyhow.

I'm sure if you broke it out demographically by age, young people probably have a higher rate, and the military probably even higher than that.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9667
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Fivelives » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:43 am

The military divorce rate is probably on par with the emergency services divorce rate (fire and police departments) across all age categories.
- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.
- A Sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the hell is going on.
- A demolitions specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.
User avatar
Fivelives
 
Posts: 3108
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby letmebreathe » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:43 pm

Aurelieuot wrote:Women in the service get a bad rap- deserved or not. They tend to be treated as objects rather than equals. I come from a military family and this has been echoed by many of my friends and family members.


My mother-inlaw was in the Army, She noticed this also but when she got Image( Major ) she found a "new level" of respect towards herself. Not to say they didnt say it behind her back, just never to her face.
Image
letmebreathe
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:09 pm

Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Brekkie » Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:53 pm

She had to reach Major before she got any respect...?
Theckhd wrote:big numbers are the in-game way of expressing that Brekkie's penis is huge.
Brekkie
 
Posts: 953
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:44 pm

Previous

Return to Arkham Asylum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: beornus and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: beornus and 1 guest