Remove Advertisements

Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby Bept » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:19 am

Does anyone know if we're still seeing healing count for 25% threat?

Say I average 20K with WoG. That would be 5000 Threat * 3 (RF) so 15000 threat. Is that correct?

Similarly SotR averages for 7.5K so * 3 (RF) would be 22500 threat.

I've been using WoG a lot and really haven't had any problems with dropping aggro. But a Warrior took it upon himself the other day to tell me that I wasn't generating enough TPS and informed me how I'm "playing wrong".

So I've been taking a second look at TPS because I'm a self-conscious tank who's always seconding guessing himself :)

The way I think of it threat is like defense rating in WotLK: You need enough to do your job but anything over that seems to be a waste.

So here is what my play style lately has been:

1. CS for single target- HotR otherwise to gen 3 charges (OK everyone is doing this).

2. WoG usually on myself but sometimes on other players that need some healing if I don't need it to help out the healer. Almost never use SotR unless it's a DPS race or I need to burn something down (like a an annoying caster).

Obviously there is a small hit to TPS by doing this if healing is still only counting for 25% instead of 50%.

Fill in with the standard Judgement etc.

I've also thrown reaching the hit cap out the window in favor of mastery dodge and parry which is sinking my TPS down even further.

3. (This one really set the Warrior off on me... but I think it was more of an ego thing) I've been experimenting with using Seal of Insight instead of Seal of Truth. I'm not sure about this one yet. But by using Insight I always have mana coming in which means I can pop Holy Radiance whenever it's off CD and Holy Radiance has proven to be a pretty useful tool (for me it ticks about 1K per second for 10 seconds on every target within 20 yards). So that would be 750 TPS per player within 20 yards that is not getting over healed. From what I've experienced Seal of Truth adds about 5% damage over insight on boss fights (does that sound right?). 5% is good but I'm not sure it's "better" than the extra healing... and 5% of abysmal tank DPS isn't going to make or break the fight.

Right now healing seems to be the most constrained resource in the game.

Sometimes I run into a DPS pulling aggro off me once or twice but with the miss chance gone from HoR and RD it doesn't really seem to be a problem.

So here's the question... Is "TPS" really an effective measure of a paladin tank? Or am I missing something.

The way I look at it is if I start dropping aggro several times on a raid boss I might start paying more attention to my threat generation but so far that hasn't really been happening even in Bastion of Twilight (not just heroics).

All I know is that this "feels" better and that's what I've pretty much been going by. As soon as I respec'd into WoG and started doing more healing... and reforging into more mitigation... every encounter seems to be going much better because I'm not running into healers going OOM or DPS dying because the healer is focused on keeping me up.

Any advice?
Bept (Armory Link)
SPARKLEPONIES of Black Dragonflight US, "Made from the tears of noobs".
Bept
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:15 pm
Location: Orono, ME

Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby Doxa » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:24 am

You're doing it right. Oh, and don't forget about Holy Radiance. ;-)

There is no benefit to being excessively far ahead of your DPS in threat. If you can keep threat while using WoG and SoI then that's the proper thing to do.
Tanking Trash on Doxa with Consecration(Rank3) Since 2007, on Doxah with Thunderclap since 2009 and on Doxeh with Death and Decay since 2010

Meanwhile, pulling DPS from fire with life-grip on Enlight and throwing lightning on Pneuma.
Doxa
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 483
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:03 am

Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby Thelmiance » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:29 am

My goal for TPS is "enough that no dps has to hold back at all", meaning that no one gets Omen warnings throughout the fight. The generally translates to me getting antsy if anyone's at above 80% or so.

In raids, the only time that's difficult to maintain is before vengeance stacks, especially if I get a string of avoidances, no SD proc, and all the dps pop all their cooldowns. Even then, though, the initial misdirect will generally ride out long enough for it not to be a concern. I've only done the first 5 raid bosses so far, plus BH I suppose, but for each of those, threat has never been a problem. If I'm on the burn target, I'll usually start in SoT and SotR until I've got a healthy lead. Once that's established, and vengeance is up above 5k or so, I'll switch to SoI and WoG for basically the rest of the fight. On Magmaw, I'll generally stick with SoT throughout the fight, because of the burn phase and the aggro drop. On Omnitron, I switch to SoI a bit early, to drop the dot off, just in case.

That being said, when I'm in what I refer to as my "healing" rotation, it's not hard for the offtank to overtake me. Especially on fights with tank switches, like in BH, where the offtank is already at 100% and coming off a huge vengeance stack, they can easily pull right back. I handle that by just talking to the OT and telling them what's going on, and that they'll need to watch it.

Basically, I figure I have the option of putting out an extra few thousand dps or an extra few thousand hps. In most cases, the dps won't make the difference between hitting the enrage or not, although I recognize that there are fights where that's the case. The extra healing, though, can take a lot of pressure off the healers, especially since it's instant healing from WoG and constant healing from SoI. It's basically a constant upwards pressure plus an instant boost out of the "red alert" danger zone that draws a ton of healer attention PLUS a shield at full health sometimes. As you said, there's only so much healer mana and attention to go around. If I get low, I know the healers are going to jump on that, because if I die, that's a quick wipe. But if I'm constantly getting low because I'm not using any of my healing abilities, that increases the chance of a dps dying. Even the lowest dps being dead is going to be far, far more of an impact than the dps loss from me going from SotR to WoG. Even if they are battle rezed, let's say, the time that they're dead will probably be more of a dps loss than the difference for me over the course of the fight.

What is it that the warrior thinks is "wrong" about what you're doing, exactly? Is it just a "your threat isn't as high as mine, so you must be doing it wrong" type of thing? Is this a guild raid where there's some kind of issue that's coming up? Does he understand that you're not just slacking on dps, you're actively trading dps for a signficant amount of self-healing? You said that you occasionally have a dps pull aggro off of you. If that's the case, I would adjust things to add a little more threat without having to taunt back. In a raid situation, that's just asking for trouble.
Thelmiance
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:28 pm

Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby snoweagle » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:35 am

What was the Warrior's evidence that your tps generation isn't sufficient? I would be looking for boss enrages and/or player deaths. Or at the very least see if you're threatcapping dpsers (which may or may not be a critical issue depending on the fight). Have a chat with some dpsers and see if they have any problem with your threat and watch omen in your fights, or likely your healers will know when dpsers are getting hit in the face by stuff they've peeled off you.

The playstyle you've described is fine and in line with general paladin tanking consensus in progressing raiding guilds. (have a look at armories of many of the accomplished tanks on these forums)

Is "TPS" really an effective measure of a paladin tank?

Yes but is a less important one of the many measures of a good tank.
User avatar
snoweagle
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:25 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby Doxa » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:50 am

It may be more likely that the warrior tank is just dealing with "old information". He probably sees a paladin tank using SoI and not using ShoR and is freaking out simply because he's unfamiliar with the class changes. I would have been frustrated a few months ago as well if I saw that.

I may be totally wrong here (please correct me if I am) but if it hasn't been changed recently I remember paladin heals causing .5 unit of threat per 1 unit of healing. So.. for me at least my standard WoG heal (around 20-25k when I've got a good share of Vengeance) is roughly equivelant to 1 non-crit ShoR. My highest WoG crit was for just over 59k. If the math is the same the threat loss from using WoG isn't really all that substantial. Besides, WoG can't miss, be parried or dodged.

EDIT: See Theckhd's response below for the last known numbers on this.

On a normal fight we're not just talking about thousands in healing w/ WoG. We're talking about possibly hundreds of thousands. In a raid last week I did over 5 million for the entire night and never lost threat to a DPS. That's a no-braining in my opinion.
Last edited by Doxa on Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
Tanking Trash on Doxa with Consecration(Rank3) Since 2007, on Doxah with Thunderclap since 2009 and on Doxeh with Death and Decay since 2010

Meanwhile, pulling DPS from fire with life-grip on Enlight and throwing lightning on Pneuma.
Doxa
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 483
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:03 am

Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby snoweagle » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:11 am

It may be more likely that the warrior tank is just dealing with "old information". He probably sees a paladin tank using SoI and not using ShoR and is freaking out simply because he's unfamiliar with the class changes.


you're right, though i think that telling things and not asking things is a less than stellar way of treating new information (or guildies for that matter). It's worth keeping a note of that reaction to help interpret future 'advice', and save some self doubt.
User avatar
snoweagle
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:25 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby theothersteve7 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:18 am

I think 5% is a pretty conservative estimate for SoT. At the very least, the 10 expertise from the glyph is nontrivial.

After a bit of discussion on these forums I made the decision to open with SoT and switch to Insight after threat has been established (generally about when wings fall off). I also start using WoG at about this point. Bear in mind that this may get messy if the boss wipes threat.

I pull about a quarter to a half of the healing that our healers do, depending on the fight. That's a pretty big deal.
Moo.
theothersteve7
 
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:45 am

Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby tlitp » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:20 am

A "do we care" thread in the ATC forum. Not only that it's a slap in the face for any self-respecting theorycrafter, it's a slap in the face right at the theorycrafter's doorsteps.

Well played. Well played, indeed. :lol:
User avatar
tlitp
 
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:25 pm

Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby theckhd » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:22 am

Doxa wrote:I may be totally wrong here (please correct me if I am) but if it hasn't been changed recently I remember paladin heals causing .5 unit of threat per 1 unit of healing.


It was supposed to be changed to 1:1. However, Wrathblood did some testing in beta and determined empirically that we were still only getting 0.25 threat per point of healing. I'm not sure if he repeated this on live in 4.0.3a. The discussion is buried somewhere in the old 4.0.1 EJ field manual thread.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7710
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby snoweagle » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:36 am

Not only that it's a slap in the face for any self-respecting theorycrafter, it's a slap in the face right at the theorycrafter's doorsteps.


I've noticed a few responses regarding whats supposed to be in this forum and what's not. what i havent found is a posting in basic training explaining what's assumed to be basic information, or any sticky in here as to what separates "advanced theorycraft" from regular theorycraft, or from basic training.

If people are posting inapropriate questions in this forum then perhaps theres room for narrowing the margin of interpretation rather than having to realtime moderate all the time (which can't be the best use of people's time who contribute so well in here)?

If someone really is new, then surely the knowledge of the line between basic and advanced can't be assumed of them so quickly?
User avatar
snoweagle
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:25 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby theckhd » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:43 am

I think tlitp is just making a joke. Coming into AT&C and asking "do we care about threat" is sort of akin to walking into the Vatican and asking, "is abortion really all that important?" :P

The question is certainly appropriate for this forum, as it's a number-crunching exercise. Right now, we really don't care much about threat in practice (sadly enough, given how much time we've spent refining the models for numerical accuracy). But working out the exact threat cost is still an interesting question, because it lets us figure out what the most efficient DPS/TPS->HPS trades are.

Wrathblood made a preliminary attempt at quantifying this in beta, and I've been meaning to add WoG and SoI to the MATLAB models so that I can get accurate average threat values for those two abilities and make an updated comparison. But there's only so much time in the day.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7710
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby Bept » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:57 pm

Thelmiance wrote:What is it that the warrior thinks is "wrong" about what you're doing, exactly?


It was a BH PuG. We did it in a single pull and nobody pulled aggro off me when it was my turn to tank. Basically I think the warrior was just trying to tell me how much better he is because he had 3x my TPS (according to him).
Bept (Armory Link)
SPARKLEPONIES of Black Dragonflight US, "Made from the tears of noobs".
Bept
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:15 pm
Location: Orono, ME

Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby Kelaan » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:11 pm

Bept wrote:It was a BH PuG. We did it in a single pull and nobody pulled aggro off me when it was my turn to tank. Basically I think the warrior was just trying to tell me how much better he is because he had 3x my TPS (according to him).

In that case, post your healing taken (and healing done) numbers, and tell him that he should be healing himself more to lessen the load on his healers. :D
User avatar
Kelaan
 
Posts: 4036
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:01 pm

Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby Vort » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:36 pm

Kelaan wrote:In that case, post your healing taken (and healing done) numbers, and tell him that he should be healing himself more to lessen the load on his healers. :D


Or ask him to solo a platform on Conclave. :wink:
Ilyashattack wrote:best ret pally, best prot pally, best jewish paladin, ugliest blood elf haircut person

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.
Vort
 
Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:31 pm

Re: Healing (WoG) and TPS, do we care?

Postby Jaitee » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:31 pm

Bept wrote:
Thelmiance wrote:What is it that the warrior thinks is "wrong" about what you're doing, exactly?


It was a BH PuG. We did it in a single pull and nobody pulled aggro off me when it was my turn to tank. Basically I think the warrior was just trying to tell me how much better he is because he had 3x my TPS (according to him).



i think i see what his problem is and its a silly one i had his problem the first time i did BH i went balls to the walls flat out...didnt think to look at omen and sadly caused a wipe...by the time the OT had taunted i had 50% vengeance + a SD SotR which pulled threat now i make sure that when the other tank taunts i dont go all out normally ill do a particular rotation that is basically this

i pull i go all out till the other tank taunts i WoG whatever HoPo i have i CS 3 times with fillers (basically normal rotation) and i hold my 3 hopo till i taunt as i taunt i let loose a SotR then build up 3 hopo as soon as the boss meteor strikes i WoG again...rinse and repeat

what this fight taut me was that vengeance matters! and after a tank swap im still hitting like a truck while hes still building his vengeance up so watch my threat! especially early in the fight where me getting a few crits and him getting a few misses is easily enough to pull aggro
Jaitee
 
Posts: 149
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:11 am

Next

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest