The boss pull

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The boss pull

Postby Brauun » Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:16 pm

I'm interested to see how people pull bosses now, which initial spell order you use. I'm pretty sure everyone has their little tricks and ways of doing it. Please comment mine if you know of a better way. Also, I'm pretty confortable with the rotation, I'm only interested in the pull here.

Here's how I pull :

1. Judgment
2. Crusader Strike
3. Avenger Shield
4. Crusader Strike
5. If Grand Crusader proc, Avenger Shield. Else, Holy Wrath.
6. Crusader Strike
7. Avenging Wrath + Shield of the Righteous
8. Divine Plea
9. Shield of the Righteous
10. Start standard rotation
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Re: The boss pull

Postby Njall » Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:22 pm

Most folks seem to start off with a Divine Plea so the first SotR can be at full power. There's a fairly long thread about this... blast.. where is it?
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Re: The boss pull

Postby Brauun » Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:25 pm

It might be a bad habit/idea, but I'm actually not benefitting from Holy Shield until 9 sec. into the pull. I build 3 stacks of HoPo from CS alone, then pop Wings and a ShotR, then DP and then a 2nd full-powered ShotR.
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Re: The boss pull

Postby Njall » Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:27 pm

Brauun wrote:It might be a bad habit/idea, but I'm actually not benefitting from Holy Shield until 9 sec. into the pull. I build 3 stacks of HoPo from CS alone, then pop Wings and a ShotR, then DP and then a 2nd full-powered ShotR.



Quite a lot of math has been thrown at it by people like Theck. I dunno. I think your methodology might be suspect and a slower threat ramp.
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Re: The boss pull

Postby Brauun » Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:31 pm

Ok thanks, I'll try to find this thread you speak of.
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Re: The boss pull

Postby sculder » Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:43 pm

Brauun wrote:It might be a bad habit/idea, but I'm actually not benefitting from Holy Shield until 9 sec. into the pull. I build 3 stacks of HoPo from CS alone, then pop Wings and a ShotR, then DP and then a 2nd full-powered ShotR.


I don't really understand why you would need to do this - threat shouldn't be an issue at all unless your raid has no tricks or misdirection. Also you will presumably have tricks on you at the start of the fight, making the first/second shield slams have a 15% damage bonus (very close to wings). Sacrificing 9 seconds of holy shield for an extra 5% on one shield slam seems a little unnecessary to me.
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Re: The boss pull

Postby inthedrops » Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:55 pm

This is just one of those things that isn't worth spending too much time thinking about. Get your holy shield up quick, build up enough threat so that when tricks/md drop you're good.

If for some reason there is a real problem when doing this, then worry about the details.
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Re: The boss pull

Postby Treck » Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:15 pm

inthedrops wrote:Get your holy shield up quick, build up enough threat so that when tricks/md drop you're good.

Starting with a Shieldslamm right away is the best strat to use for this.
While you can use it for WoG before running in (even giving yourself a shield, id recommend a DP cancelaura macro) to get Holy Shield up, spending those HPs on a shieldslamm is just a lot more usefull.
Threat as it is now, is NOT a problem in raids.
The first few seconds however, are crutial.
A shieldslamm + Tricks will assure you to have threat untill your vengeance starts ticking high when you can support yourself without any problem, i wouldnt trust a pre WoG the same way, even tho it could work.
Also, Holy Shield is not as big of a deal as it was when it gave us block rating the first few seconds of a fight (not saying you shouldnt bother about getting it up asap, you really should, but when it would guarantee you a block it was pretty damn good).
But if you would choose to wait 9 sec before your first SS, just to have 2 in a row, its not going to change much, in fact it will only lower your burst threat witch is really all that matters.
If you really wanna go for the most threat ever made on a fight, you wanna wait for vengeance aswell, but its really not applicable.
Not to mention using DP mid fight is a GCD "wasted", unlike if you would use it before the fight actually starts.
If your running into a boss from a great distance, judging from far is nice in 2 ways, you can get 20% speed decrease up before he hits you + you could get sacred duty to procc for your incoming SS, and even if that might mess up your rotation slightly (mainly not making your Judgement CD get off during your next "rotation" ensuring sacred duty WONT procc for the 2nd one), having the first one critt will pretty much guarantee that the boss will stay on you, nomatter what buttons you press.
Usually, it ends up as: DP(3xHP) - SS - CS - AS - CS - J - SS etc.
A small thing to note is that the earlier you use your AS, the more CSes you will do before you will want to press it again, meaning it will get more chances to procc. This really only applies to the start of a pull or a similar scenario, but its always nice to keep ASing instead of using consecration/holy wrath (HW just sucks so much atm), and also depends if your willing to sacrifice a few more sec to get up the 20% attackspeed debuff or not.
When im not starting tanking i always use judgement first on the pull, getting JotJ up asap at range so that (in my case) the warrior doesnt need to prio TC for survivability over threat.
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Re: The boss pull

Postby pallysawse » Sun Dec 26, 2010 2:11 am

Pretty much every boss pull,for me, goes like so...

- avenging wrath
- judgement
- avenger shield
- divine plea
- SoTr
-cs/judgement rotation with shield procs/occasional concecration thrown in when everything else is on cd... threat is jumpy and with some decent gear/expertise/hit ...you really will bring ur threat up to about 500 to 800k before AV is off.
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Re: The boss pull

Postby inthedrops » Sun Dec 26, 2010 8:00 am

Guess I'll give my general answer :)

1. Divine Plea
2. Taunt + Judge the boss (I judge first, and hold off on taunt for as long as I can stand waiting, just for safety sake)
3. Just before the boss gets into melee range, Avenging Wrath.
4. Once in melee range, ShoR.

Start in on a regular rotation.
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Re: The boss pull

Postby Halshar » Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:01 am

I find that with overzealous dps in my raid, I typically do the following.

1. Divine Plea
2. Avenger's Shield pull
3. Judge while running in
4. ShoR once in melee range
5. Begin rotation (Use Holy Wrath/Consecrate for first rotation cycle if Grand Crusader doesn't proc).
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Re: The boss pull

Postby econ21 » Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:00 pm

One topic on this is:

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... =viewtopic

I still like to start with exorcism on the harder pulls. It's free threat/damage - it does not really stop you doing anything else after. Especially with the glyph of dazing shield, you still have time to do whatever else you want to (judge, AS etc). And the noisy "charging up" cast time for exorcism provides a kind of count down that can help focus the party.

Since that thread, I read theckhd's idea of waiting for 3 power, popping wings, doing a shield slam, divine plea and second shield slam. That seems to work quite well for me and afterwards I often feel threat is so established, I can switch to seal of insight after the wings have worn out.
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Re: The boss pull

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:53 am

Brauun wrote:Here's how I pull :

1. Judgment
2. Crusader Strike
3. Avenger Shield
4. Crusader Strike
5. If Grand Crusader proc, Avenger Shield. Else, Holy Wrath.
6. Crusader Strike
7. Avenging Wrath + Shield of the Righteous
8. Divine Plea
9. Shield of the Righteous
10. Start standard rotation


This is almost exactly how I pull. For bosses that enter melee range almost immediately, I use exactly what you posted, with one alteration: Consecration instead of Holy Wrath. For most bosses, I use a slightly modified version based on empirical testing:

1. Judgement
2. Avenger's Shield (still outside melee range)
3. Crusader Strike
4. Avenger's Shield (if GC procced), Cons otherwise
5. Crusader Strike
6. Avenger's Shield (if GC), else wait 0.5 seconds and Judgement (if SD not up), else Holy Wrath.
7. Crusader Strike
8. AW+SotR
9. Divine Plea
10. SotR
11. 939

This assumes the boss is far enough away that you can Judge and AS before the boss reaches you. I have Improved Judgement, so this is usually the case.

Popping DP on the pull and following with SotR isn't the threat panacea that some people seem to think it is. In my experience, Tricks of the Trade alone is enough to hold aggro in the first 30 seconds regardless of how you open. Instead, what matters seems to be making sure that after those 30 seconds, you've established a large enough lead on your own that you don't need to taunt when Tricks drops off. After that point, you should have enough Vengeance to hold your own, and threat becomes irrelevant. Since I haven't had any problems with threat in the first 10-15 seconds so far, I've chosen to go with an opening sequence that maximizes total threat produced in the first 30 seconds rather than trying to maximize for the first 5-10 seconds, which means letting Vengeance stack some before popping your "free" DP+SotR.

Keep inmind that SotR can also be dodged and parried, unlike AS and Judgement, leading to a higher chance of not connecting with any attacks within the first couple GCDs.

In 4.0.1 at level 80, using SotR on the pull did make a bit of sense, because the rest of our abilities were relatively weak in comparison, even at low vengeance. At level 85, that doesn't seem to be the case at all.
Last edited by theckhd on Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The boss pull

Postby theothersteve7 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:55 pm

Theck, I think you're missing a CS between 6 and 7 from when you copy-pasted. Only picking on you because everything you say influences the community so much. ;)

I've found in most cases that if I'm running toward the boss I only have one ranged GCD. It's uncommon for me to truly "pull" a boss toward me; I'd like to be in melee range as soon as possible, and generally turn him around before the third GCD. I suppose this varies a bit by fight, however.

I've also found that the first two or three GCDs, most DPS doesn't produce much threat, since they're still ramping up, applying debuffs, and so on. It's more important that your attacks connect than hit hard. With our current low expertise I like the relative reliability of Judgement and AS over an early shield slam. So I'm firmly in the "don't open with DP" camp.
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Re: The boss pull

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:11 am

Oops. Thanks, it should be correct now.
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