Holy Shield question

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Holy Shield question

Postby Phurba » Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:00 am

Hi,I have a hopefully simple question about holy shield. I have searched these forums and EJ and can't find an answer.

Let's say we're about to pull a boss. Let's also say that our gear isn't the greatest and we're not at the 102.4% yet.

On the pull you would either Exo>AS, or just AS and run in, then you would start your normal 939 rotation, meaning waiting for 3 charges to ShoR.

My question is, once you get that first charge of HoPo, would it not be beneficial to cast a 1pt SHoR/WoG to get Holy Shield up, then proceed with the normal rotation? It just seems like 9 seconds+ after the pull, not having up HS can hurt pretty badly if it's a hard hitting boss and your gear isn't BiS or close.

Sorry if this is a dumb question but I'm still learning. Thanks.
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Re: Holy Shield question

Postby Iselian » Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:52 am

There's going to be (is?) a change where Divine Plea will grant 3 holy power. After this is implemented, your question is answered on its own. Exo, AS (or just AS) and then start with a powerful SotR, which also gets up HS.

As for right now? If you're having problems living for the first 10 seconds, tell dps to wait and put it up, the extra block chance can certainly help. If you're not having problems, I would recommend going with the rotation as normal. No reason to gimp the threat a bit if you're not having living issues for that initial period.
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Re: Holy Shield question

Postby Phurba » Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:59 am

That makes a lot of sense, thanks. As of now I'm not having any survivability issues but I'm only 73 and tanking regular 5 mans. I was more wondering for when I hit 80 and get into heroics.

That is an awesome change to DP. When is this going to happen? I haven't heard anything about this. It's really nice they're doing that, as it's much harder to generate HoPo as prot when compared to ret. I was hoping they would eventually make AS give HoPo, but this change is definitely good enough for me.
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Re: Holy Shield question

Postby Dazhbog » Sun Oct 24, 2010 9:55 pm

Another thing you can do is hit Divine Protection (bubble wall) as you run in. This not only gives the healers a bit of time to get into position, but it also gives you time to get Holy Shield up and running, and since the cooldown is only a minute now, we want to be more or less rolling this for fights anyway.
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Re: Holy Shield question

Postby Macra » Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:34 am

In a lot of cases holy shield will provide my DR then Divine Protection. Also, the change to Divine Plea was stated in a A&Q at BlizzCon.
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Re: Holy Shield question

Postby Chanserv » Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:56 am

Sorry I know topic is kinda old but seems to fit in here, and topic is still on first page.

Here is what I do, but have no 100% data to back up my theory's.

1. Pop Divine Plea,
2. Pull with Avenger's Shield,
3. Pop Divine Protection,
4. Pop Inquisition,
5. Start normal rotation.


Thought processes is that the 30% from Inq is > SotR with 0 vengeance as far as threat goes, and DP makes up for the lack of the 10% and gives healers time to get set ect ect.


Now you may tell me how absolutely wrong I am / Yell at me for bumping an old topic. :)
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Re: Holy Shield question

Postby sculder » Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:44 am

Chanserv wrote:the 30% from Inq is > SotR with 0 vengeance as far as threat goes


SotR no longer scales directly with attack power, so waiting on vengeance stacks is not really necessary
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Re: Holy Shield question

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:56 am

sculder wrote:SotR no longer scales directly with attack power, so waiting on vengeance stacks is not really necessary

Er... it does. Just not as well as before.

Chanserv wrote:Thought processes is that the 30% from Inq is > SotR with 0 vengeance as far as threat goes, and DP makes up for the lack of the 10% and gives healers time to get set ect ect.


You also don't have any stacks of Censure on the boss initially, which means your Censure and Seal of Truth damage (all holy) is very minimal. The only guaranteed Holy damage you put out in your opening sequence is AS and Judgement, compared to (probably) 2-3 Crusader strikes and a bunch of melee swings.

My bet would be that you're still better off using that initial HP on a SotR (or better yet, a SotR-DivPlea-SotR double-shot 10 seconds into the fight, when you do have Vengeance). If you're really concerned about dying in the first 10 seconds, just use Divine Protection.
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Re: Holy Shield question

Postby sculder » Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:20 am

theckhd wrote:Er... it does. Just not as well as before.


I guess my wording was a bit ambiguous - you will no longer see a change in damage from 10k to 70k with vengeance. It's not really necessary to try to optimize your SotR placement in the rotation based off of your current vengeance, which is one of the reasons why blizzard changed SotR to be static damage. (It may have also been about the 100k SotRs in icc, but who knows? :lol: ). You will see larger SotR hits with more vengeance but the difference between the start of the fight and 9 seconds in is trivial at best.
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Re: Holy Shield question

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:39 am

sculder wrote:You will see larger SotR hits with more vengeance but the difference between the start of the fight and 9 seconds in is trivial at best.


I beg to differ. Depending on the boss, 9-10 seconds is enough to get 30%-50% Vengeance. 50% roughly doubles your AP, which also roughly doubles your SotR. It won't be a 10k->70k change, but 10k vs 20k is certainly realistic, and that's a difference of 30k threat. Coupling SotR-DP-SotR with wings 10 seconds in (which also gives Censure time to stack up) generally means I can switch to WoG/SoI very early in the fight.
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Re: Holy Shield question

Postby sculder » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:13 am

theckhd wrote:I beg to differ. Depending on the boss, 9-10 seconds is enough to get 30%-50% Vengeance. 50% roughly doubles your AP, which also roughly doubles your SotR. It won't be a 10k->70k change, but 10k vs 20k is certainly realistic, and that's a difference of 30k threat. Coupling SotR-DP-SotR with wings 10 seconds in (which also gives Censure time to stack up) generally means I can switch to WoG/SoI very early in the fight.


Relative to the OP the effects are not as extreme, as he stated he pulls with barkskin up. Personally I rarely use DP on the pull, I generally wait until I have full (or close to it) vengeance, and tricks have faded, at which point I use inq on a SD proc followed by a DP SotR and another hopo ramp up to SotR. Once wings fades (~30 sec in), I'm generally free to WOG for the entire fight. My original point on the triviality of 9 seconds of vengeance in relation to attack power is completely relative. Running numbers in my head I cannot think of a way in which DP>inq>3hopo>SotR would be significantly better than DP>SotR>3hopo>SotR. It might be theoretically equal, but if you factor in things like the possibility of pulling with judgement (in one way or another) which can give you SD, I think DP>SotR>3hopo>SotR would pull ahead.

The difference between those 2 specific starting rotations would come down to whether or not a SotR modified with inq, SD, and ~10 sec worth of vengeance (Call it "scenario 1") would hit hard enough to offset a SotR (0 vengeance, SD) and a second SotR (10sec of vengeance, SD) (Scenario 2).

Remember that if you have rogue(s) in the raid, scenario 2 will give your first SotR a 15% damage bonus, whereas in scenario 1 tricks will go to melee hits and the few stacks of censure that are up. I'll try to dig through some logs to get specific numbers, but using inq that early in the fight means you won't have full censure stacks through the full duration, so it essentially modifies that SotR exclusively.
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Re: Holy Shield question

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:43 am

Oh, I'm pretty sure that Inq on the pull is a net loss compared to leading with SotR. We're in complete agreement there. In fact, I would bet that Inq at any point before you have a full stack of Censure on the boss is going to be less effective.

My point is just that Vengeance AP is huge, and 9 seconds worth of ramp-up constitutes doubling your attack power. That's far from trivial that early in a fight. In a forum where people consider changes of 2%-3% significant and worth debating, a change of 50%-100% shouldn't be dismissed as "trivial." I guarantee that you'll have more threat at the 15-second mark by building up holy power "naturally" and using an AW+SotR-DP-SotR combination at 30% Vengeance than you will by popping DP and wings to force a SotR with 0% Vengeance.
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Re: Holy Shield question

Postby sculder » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:51 am

I'm speaking in terms purely relative to the situations outlined. "trivial" might have been an overstatement, but I've dug through a lot of logs and hardly ever see a massive increase in SotR damage within the first 2 rotations. Keep in mind that I've been assuming tricks is present, giving the first SotR +15% which can heavily offset the lack of vengeance at the beginning.

On-topic to the OP (if it isn't already obvious) inq is not worth spending the hopo unless you have full censure stacks. Recommended rotation is 939 until full censure, followed by AW-SotR-DP-SotR combo.
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Re: Holy Shield question

Postby theothersteve7 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:53 pm

I see people saying AW-SotR-DP-SotR repeatedly. Wouldn't AW-SotR-DP-Judge-SotR be better? To fish for a SD proc. Just a thought; it's what I've been doing. I've also been in the habit of pulling that combo during burn phases.

So for the full pull, it would be:

AS->CS->Judge->CS->HW->CS->[AW]ShoR->DP->Judge->ShoR

Granted I guess you take a decent hit to threat if you don't get a grand crusader proc in those ~4 crusader strikes. Though that's sort of unavoidable if you're using a ranged move to pull. Hmmm.

*edit* Also I was under the impression that wings and tricks don't stack.
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Re: Holy Shield question

Postby sculder » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:48 pm

theothersteve7 wrote:I see people saying AW-SotR-DP-SotR repeatedly. Wouldn't AW-SotR-DP-Judge-SotR be better?


Not really. If you judge at that point in the rotation you'll screw up your rotation in the next cycle. Essentially it's the same thing - I'll explain:

If you do AW-SotR-DP-SotR then go back to CS>J>CS>X>CS>SotR, you have 3 SotRs in that sequence. You have two opportunities for SD to proc (first and last SotR).

if you do AW-SotR-DP-Judge-SotR, you'd be forced to do something like CS>AS>CS>HW>CS>SotR next. In this case you also have 3 SotRs with two opportunities for SD to proc (first and second SotR).


theothersteve7 wrote:Also I was under the impression that wings and tricks don't stack.


Correct, they do not stack. Tricks lasts for 6 seconds after their first attack, so it's generally safe to wait for a full censure stack before blowing AW, that way the tricks are out of the way and you'll maximize your tps output.
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