4.3 Item Enhancement Guide

Get help with your character's gear

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Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

Postby Digren » Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:30 am

econ21 wrote:It might be worth mentioning that a few enchants are likely to be very expensive at least early on, as they require two maelstrom crystals that come from disenchanting epics: specifically greater stamina on chest and greater mastery on gloves (both require 2 iirc); and windwalk (requires 6). I'll be using cheaper fallbacks for a while - +55 stamina on chest, +50 mastery on gloves (not on your list last time I checked) and mending on weapon.

Both the ones you mention are already on the list. They aren't flagged as best, but they aren't best. Both are pretty high for the respective slots, though, so someone unwilling to pay for the top-of-the-line should go down the list and find those.
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Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

Postby 99sitr » Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:04 am

Digren wrote:I don't know that building a specific set for any heroic is worth the effort. You'll outlevel it fairly quickly regardless as your general gear set, and that of your healer and DPS, improve.

That said, the increased focus on mastery is basically building an avoidance set. Remember that mastery rating reduces incoming damage taken more than the same amount of dodge or parry rating for any geared 85 tank. Thus a mastery set > avoidance set in all cases*.


* barring encounters where a block applies some sort of secondary debuff or bleed, but a dodge or parry does not.



I was referring to the Chimaeron fight, in Blackwing Descent the raid instance. In that encounter the boss' melee swing is on a seemingly longer timer than normal bosses, and given the fact that he hits for well over 160k per hit due to the mechanics of the fight.
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Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

Postby Digren » Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:26 am

99sitr wrote:I was referring to the Chimaeron fight, in Blackwing Descent the raid instance. In that encounter the boss' melee swing is on a seemingly longer timer than normal bosses, and given the fact that he hits for well over 160k per hit due to the mechanics of the fight.

Ahh ok. Still mastery rating > avoidance rating for reducing that damage, too, and for making it less spiky.

With regard to mastery >/< stamina, I haven't been reading the raid encounter forum yet. Let's watch what folks are trying and their success rates, since analytical results are unlikely this early.
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Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

Postby Treck » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:03 pm

99sitr wrote:I was referring to the Chimaeron fight, in Blackwing Descent the raid instance. In that encounter the boss' melee swing is on a seemingly longer timer than normal bosses, and given the fact that he hits for well over 160k per hit due to the mechanics of the fight.

Chimaeron might aswell be hitting for 10k, as that is all the healing you need to take while tanking him.
If your having one tank taking the breaks, and one taking dubbleattacks, all that he has to do is survive the first attack with more than 10k hp, meaning if he has 170k hp, he will always survive, with no CDs/block/avoids.
I would DEFINATELY avoid making fightspecific gear for this fight, as it is one of the absolutly easiest encounters to keep the tanks alive on (normalmode ofc).
You can have a dps of ANY class (that can taunt) tanking this encounter, having the 2nd tank take all the dubbleattacks, your tank will effectivly need 10k worth of healing each 2-4 sec, try finding a fight thats will require less healing on the tank :P
If the dubbleattack tank can block/dodge/parry one of his 2 attacks, he wont die.
With decent gear, only like 1/10 attacks will both go through "normally", and even then its very easy surviving.

As for the mastery vs sta discussion, id personally choose 1.5sta over 1mastery.
According to my healers im easier to heal (compared to warrior) and id take that as a pretty good sign that its working.
If you would be getting really close to beeing blockcapped, id say its worth a lot of health going the last bit to reach it.
But as it is now, its a bit of a leap trying to reach all the way, making sta stronger, and more reliable.
Personally i cant wait till we can reach blockcap reliably, its gonna be a lot of fun.
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Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

Postby econ21 » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:52 am

My gemming is a mess at the moment - I've been using whatever my JC alt can cut. But my gear has now settled down to pretty much its pre-raid state and so I am thinking about being consistent in my gemming. I've tried to quantify the stamina vs mastery trade off I face and this is what I have come up with:

I have 13 gem slots: 4 red, 3 yellow, 2 blue and 4 prismatic. I want to match all gem slots.

If I go for stamina (pure in blue and prismatic, mixed with mastery and parry in yellow and red respectively), it gives me 570 stamina and 60 mastery.

If I go for mastery (pure in yellow and prismatic, mixed with stamina and parry in yello and red respectively), it gives me 60 stamina and 400 mastery.

I believe 1 stamina gives 14*1.05*1.15*1.05 hit points (with 5% kings, 15% talents, 5% plate spec).

I understand 1 mastery gives 0.00502% damage reduction (79.68 mastery for 1% block, so dr is 0.4/76.68)

Hence gemming for stamina would give me 10118 hps and 0.3% damage reduction. I have around 130k hp buffed with my current messy gemming, so that's nearly 8% health for me.

Gemming for mastery would give me 107 hps and 2.008% damage reduction (or, in other words, 5% block; currently I have 82.5% avoidance plus block with my messy gemming)

8% more health or 2% more damage reduction? It seems quite a close call.

EDITED: To include KysenMurrin's corrections.
Last edited by econ21 on Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:20 am

You've missed the spec passive +15% stamina bonus. 570 Stam would give you, I think, 9636 health.

Edit: I'm wrong, I also forgot 5% stam from plate spec. 10118 health.
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Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

Postby econ21 » Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:06 am

Thanks for the corrections. It leaves me in a quandry though - how to choose between 10k hitpoints or 2% damage reduction? I like the idea of damage reduction, but the gain seems rather small whereas the boost to hitpoints seems large. If we think about a simple time to live calculation, the hitpoints seem preferred as the proportionately bigger increase for me. However, in 5 mans, it frequently seems my (priest) guild healer gets mana starved in tougher fights, so maybe I should go for mastery. (My casual impression is that pally healers seem to cope with mana better atm.)

EDIT: As an addendum, in the end, I've gone with mixed stamina/mastery gems all round. They happened to be what my alt could make in numbers given her rares, but now whichever side of the argument is right, I've gemmed wrong. But at least not too wrong.
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Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

Postby yappo » Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:03 am

Gemming for mastery won't give you 2% mitigation.

Your healers aren't interested in the damage you're currently not taking. Given the numbers you've provided your healers see a 17.5% risk of you taking an additional 70% damage (unblocked hit). Gemming mastery will remove in the order of 30% of that risk, so we're talking 20% mitigation.

Edit: (purely physical and avoidable/blockable damage, of course. Magic damage isn't included at all)
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Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

Postby econ21 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:46 am

Maybe this is an issue of semantics. I am trying to find out how much your overall damage taken is reduced - that's not the same as mitigation, as avoidance also comes into it. Healers will care about the total damage you receive, as it affects your survival and their mana.

I've redone the calculations to be more accurate and reflect my current gear (upgaded the belt from the JP to crafted one, so lost a red gem slot).

I make it that, gemming primarily for stamina, I would have:
Health: 155164
Block: 54.33%

Gemming primarily for mastery, I would have:
Health: 145685
Block: 58.34

So gemming primarily for mastery rather than stamina would gain me 4% block at the cost of 6% of my health.

Either way, my dodge is 11.1% and parry 12.18%. My armour reduces melee damage by 60.45%.

Suppose a level 88 boss makes a melee attack that potentially would hit for one unit of damage. We have chances to competely avoid the damage by miss, parry and dodge; and a chance to reduce it by 40% through block. Any damage that gets through is mitigated by armor.

The expected damage the stamina tank would take is:
[1-(0.044+0.1158+0.105)-(0.4*0.5297)]*(1-0.6045)=0.2070

The expected damage the mastery tank would take is:
[1-(0.044+0.1158+0.105)-(0.4*0.5784)]*(1-0.6045)=0.1994

Maybe I am using the wrong term, but I will call one minus these fractions my total damage reduction.

So gemming for mastery rather than stamina reduces your expected damage by 0.0075 units or 3.6% of what the stamina tank would take.

If we think about how many melee attacks it would take to kill the tank, we can divide the health by one minus the total damage reduction.

The stamina tank would require 749695 strikes (or, more realistically, strikes that could cause a sum total of 749695 damage).
The mastery tank would require 730528 strikes.

Now this last calculation is only strictly relevant when soloing (stamina would be better), as for groups we would need to factor in the healer. I don't have a good way of quantifying the gain to the healer in mana. You could say that if you are taking 3.6% less damage, you are saving the healer 3.6% mana. But I am not sure this captures the "flow" aspect of mana: in a long fight, what matters is mana expended minus mana regenerated. It may be that a modest increase in mana expended causes it to rapidly outstrip mana regenerated and cause a wipe.

I am not posting this to make an argument either way on stamina vs mastery, just trying to quantify the trade-off when gemming.
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Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

Postby yappo » Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:38 am

I believe you should consider the stamina-tank taking 100% of base-line damage and weigh that against a lower than baseline damage intake versus the increased risk of lower stamina killing the mastery-tank one attack earlier.

Thus you're really only interested in looking at the damage-spikes (unblocked hits). Without doing any calcs I think we're talking 17.5 versus 13.5 % of all incoming attacks, because it's these attacks that should have your healers cough uncomfortably. Ie, we're removing some 20% of all incoming damage-spikes by going mastery, which is fantastic provided that the lower stamina isn't suicidal to begin with.

When gear allows us to press beyond the 90% limit for a 'stamina stacker', then I firmly believe he/she will be ordered to reconfigure for mastery because that would remove 50% of all incoming spikes (provided reconfiguring adds 5%+ extra block).

As we get closer to reaching 102.4 by going mastery (and eventually reach it), cleaning up your act, so to say, will indeed become manadatory. I can't see your raidleader accepting a 5% risk of eating 170% spikes when lowering health from 220k to 200k would reduce said risk to zero.

Again, magic damage is not taken into consideration at all.

Edited to clear out some obvious spelling errors.
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Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

Postby Digren » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:21 am

I'm looking more into it in terms of a baseline stamina for a given stage, the going mastery above that. So far that works out to be:

around 115k as a stage one (new 85) tank
around 130k as a stage two (ready for heroics) tank
around 150k? as a stage three (ready to raid) tank

Again these aren't mathematically justified yet, but if other tanks can survive heroics with 130k health and all their gear reforged into near-useless hit and expertise, then I can certainly survive with 130k health and all my gear reforged / partially gemmed into mastery, and healers will love me more.

Anyway that's the strategy I'm using for now, because quantifying this (especially in the presence of a healer - and with WoG I'm a healer - is still very complicated).
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Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

Postby Vigilant » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:18 pm

My question is certainly a few steps down the intelligence ladder from the preceding comments, but I spend a lot of time on TankSpot, where 90% of the gemming advice tends to go as follows:

blue: mastery/stam
yellow: mastery
red: parry/mastery
prismatic: mastery

As opposed to this guide's advice, which if I understand it correctly can be summed up as:

blue: mastery/stam
yellow: mastery/stam
red: parry/stam
prismatic: mastery/stam

I'm currently hovering around 150k, at right around average ilevel 346, and gemming and enchanting following this guide's advice. I am all for being more "dense", i.e. less stam. w/ more mitigation via mastery, but I have understood what I have read on this site to say that the tradeoff in going from gemming strategy #2 above, to gemming strategy #1 above is not worth it. In short, one looses way more stam. than is justified by the return in avoidance and mitigation. Is this very rudimentary understanding correct? I get the idea that the proponents of gemming strategy #1 may, by and large, be warriors?
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Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

Postby yappo » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm

Vigilant wrote:
I'm currently hovering around 150k, at right around average ilevel 346, and gemming and enchanting following this guide's advice. I am all for being more "dense", i.e. less stam. w/ more mitigation via mastery, but I have understood what I have read on this site to say that the tradeoff in going from gemming strategy #2 above, to gemming strategy #1 above is not worth it. In short, one looses way more stam. than is justified by the return in avoidance and mitigation. Is this very rudimentary understanding correct? I get the idea that the proponents of gemming strategy #1 may, by and large, be warriors?


Depends on what is trying to smash your face in. For running heroics (and Baradin Hold counts as a weekly, very easy, hc), go #1 all the way.

I'm reading conflicting experiences concerning raid-content. Less so from those running hard-modes where stuff REALLY want to smash you head in (give me my stamina before that boss chews my face off again). I'm getting a mild impression that raid-content on farm (even though the guild may still be progressing further into the instance) have seen tanks geared to the extent that they, once again, move away from stamina to CTC. I'm unclear if this kind of gearing is used for progression content though.

Keep in mind, though, that those tanks are NOT walking around in average ilevel 346 gear any longer.
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Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

Postby Vigilant » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:15 pm

yappo wrote:Depends on what is trying to smash your face in. For running heroics (and Baradin Hold counts as a weekly, very easy, hc), go #1 all the way.

I'm reading conflicting experiences concerning raid-content. Less so from those running hard-modes where stuff REALLY want to smash you head in (give me my stamina before that boss chews my face off again). I'm getting a mild impression that raid-content on farm (even though the guild may still be progressing further into the instance) have seen tanks geared to the extent that they, once again, move away from stamina to CTC. I'm unclear if this kind of gearing is used for progression content though.

Keep in mind, though, that those tanks are NOT walking around in average ilevel 346 gear any longer.


Yappo,

Thanks for your response. I came up when ICC was already on farm, and tank gearing, gemming, and enchanting could be summarized as, "Stack stam, all the armor you can find, and more stam." All conversations concerning the validity of using avoidance sets in raid content in 3.3 were quickly shot down. One optimal strategy was codified, and in that certainty I rested peacefully, being confident that what I did was optimal.

I'm a little less certain these days. I've followed Digren's Gear Guide, and this, his Item Enhancement Guide, for 4.0.x , much as I did during 3.3.x, however debated variants are much more common, and all things seem less certain. I definitely fall into the category of the guy who's face is going to be getting smashed in by heroic 5-man bosses 95% of the time, with the occasional PuG raid boss as I happen across a group.

That being said, getting away from Digren's "balanced" (mastery/stam, parry/stam) strategy towards a more mastery-centric strategy kind of scares me, and I may go do some digging around to see what the maths say about x stamina being a good trade off for y mastery when z of your damage intake is physical mitigable damage. Then I'll see how much stam I would lose and mastery I would gain if I started gemming mastery/stam, mastery, and parry/mastery in blue, yellow, and red respectively, and if it is indeed a mathematically proper trade off.

I will definitely never be a high end raid tank (my 1GB freaking integrated graphics card MacBook sees to that), but I aim to be the very best tank I can be in any group I step into.

Thanks again.
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Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

Postby yappo » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:14 am

Vigilant wrote:
That being said, getting away from Digren's "balanced" (mastery/stam, parry/stam) strategy towards a more mastery-centric strategy kind of scares me, and I may go do some digging around to see what the maths say about x stamina being a good trade off for y mastery when z of your damage intake is physical mitigable damage. Then I'll see how much stam I would lose and mastery I would gain if I started gemming mastery/stam, mastery, and parry/mastery in blue, yellow, and red respectively, and if it is indeed a mathematically proper trade off.


I'm not raiding neither, and won't be until raiding pugs start to form on our low-pop server.

In my average 353 gear I'm sporting all of 139k unbuffed health, so you can guess how I gem. I've pretty much stopped marking anything up. Just rush in and bomb away like WotLK days. My health is NOT an issue.
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