[10] Nefarian - Phase 3 Issues

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[10] Nefarian - Phase 3 Issues

Postby Kerriodos » Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:11 pm

So, we've spent a few hours now on Nefarian, and mostly have Phase 1 and 2 worked out. However, we've been struggling with adds in Phase 3; primarily this is an issue with me focusing too much on kiting the adds and not enough on controlling where they're wandering. The consequence is, of course, adds that never fall over because they clip fire, etc. This is a known issue and something I'll be taking steps to fix. However, I was wondering if anyone who has killed Nefarian or at least put some time into it, has any tips for dealing with adds in Phase 3?
Last edited by Kerriodos on Tue Dec 28, 2010 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [10] Nefarian

Postby Akirha » Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:02 am

Hi, first time poster, long time reader. Is it feasible for a paladin to be kiting the adds?

Here's my situation. Classes available to help kite.
3 mages
1 ele sham
2 Moonkins
3 rogues
1 Prot Warrior

In my eyes having the prot warrior do this alone seems to be the best way. Currently we're spawning them all in a pile for P3 I pop my CDs get a good threat lead and begin running while the warrior and a rogue piercing/FoK them and then shockwave after fires.

It seems great, but the adds always seem to get split up and get to me, in a dire effort to keep everything under control I try to AS adds in the front and then HW as they close in, to group them up. It's not working though, by the time we kite them around the room we've caught up to our original flame where they spawned.

Is there anything I can do to fix this? Does it need to fall in the hands of the DPS with slowing abilities, or is there an effective way for a paladin to perform this kite?
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Re: [10] Nefarian

Postby Belloc » Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:34 am

Akirha wrote:Hi, first time poster, long time reader. Is it feasible for a paladin to be kiting the adds?

Here's my situation. Classes available to help kite.
3 mages
1 ele sham
2 Moonkins
3 rogues
1 Prot Warrior

In my eyes having the prot warrior do this alone seems to be the best way. Currently we're spawning them all in a pile for P3 I pop my CDs get a good threat lead and begin running while the warrior and a rogue piercing/FoK them and then shockwave after fires.

It seems great, but the adds always seem to get split up and get to me, in a dire effort to keep everything under control I try to AS adds in the front and then HW as they close in, to group them up. It's not working though, by the time we kite them around the room we've caught up to our original flame where they spawned.

Is there anything I can do to fix this? Does it need to fall in the hands of the DPS with slowing abilities, or is there an effective way for a paladin to perform this kite?


Sounds like you're speaking from a 25-man perspective (this is a 10-man thread)... anyway, on 10-man, our paladin tank had no issues kiting the 5 adds. He had some help from a rogue (tricks) in getting them all on him initially (we position adds in phase 1 so that one breath will revive them all) and then he kited around the room until they died behind Nefarian. After they died, we turned Nef so that he'd breathe on them instead of allowing them to resurrect from fire. We just kept repeating this kiting until he died.

Anyway, if you are having trouble picking them all up, use your rogues to tricks them. From that point on, you should have no issue picking them up.
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Re: [10] Nefarian

Postby Kerriodos » Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:42 am

Akirha wrote:Hi, first time poster, long time reader. Is it feasible for a paladin to be kiting the adds?

Here's my situation. Classes available to help kite.
3 mages
1 ele sham
2 Moonkins
3 rogues
1 Prot Warrior

In my eyes having the prot warrior do this alone seems to be the best way. Currently we're spawning them all in a pile for P3 I pop my CDs get a good threat lead and begin running while the warrior and a rogue piercing/FoK them and then shockwave after fires.

It seems great, but the adds always seem to get split up and get to me, in a dire effort to keep everything under control I try to AS adds in the front and then HW as they close in, to group them up. It's not working though, by the time we kite them around the room we've caught up to our original flame where they spawned.

Is there anything I can do to fix this? Does it need to fall in the hands of the DPS with slowing abilities, or is there an effective way for a paladin to perform this kite?


My group setup leaves our only options as myself--a prot paladin--or a feral druid, so naturally it's me that's kiting. But there are a number of videos of prot paladins kiting the adds,so it's obviously quite feasable. I'm thinking you're running into the same issue as me here: too much focus on the word "kiting." So long as you're not turning your back to the adds and their stacks aren't getting too high, tanking a fairly large pack of the adds seems feasible. You keep them moving so that fire isn't dropped directly on top of the pack, and our primary goal should be keeping them out of fire. If they stay out of fire long enough, they run out of energy and take a nap, at which point their stacks fall off.

One thing that confused us was that WoWWiki and other sites had the stacking buff the adds gain attributed to them hitting the tank, however it appears to be simply a stacking over time buff--they still gain it in CC, and it doesn't stack faster if I straight up tank some adds. It took us a long time to figure this out, since we made too many assumptions about the fight.
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Re: [10] Nefarian - Phase 3 Issues

Postby Brutalus » Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:50 am

Paladins can "kite" the adds just fine. There are two mains ways of doing it: the kiting way and the tanking way. Warriors can do a pretty good job of the kiting way if they glyph piercing howl, they can constantly be out of melee range of the adds - but it's probably somewhat more difficult to do. On our 25man kill, I essentially just tanked them and strafed around the wall. When he shot fire and I felt I was a safe enough distance away, I slowed down and started backpeddling for a couple of seconds so that I didn't go round the entire room too fast. When fire was incoming again soon, I started strafing again. We just repeated this until he died - the tank damage is not really intense on the kiter as long as the adds aren't getting revived and he isn't turning his back. In short - don't be afraid to tank them rather than kiting them, it works fine, but when there's a fire meteor imminent make sure you're on the move so that it doesn't land on your adds.

Oh, and we used a hunter to MD any loose adds and since it's 25man we used our third tank to ferry any loose adds from the melee to me - but the breath tactic sounds like it'd solve any of those types of issues.
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Re: [10] Nefarian - Phase 3 Issues

Postby Fetzie » Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:29 pm

Can you freeze them with ring of frost?
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Re: [10] Nefarian - Phase 3 Issues

Postby Belloc » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:15 pm

Pyrea wrote:Can you freeze them with ring of frost?

You probably can, but locking them in place is typically a bad thing, as they are almost guaranteed to get hit by the fire/meteors (which restores their "health" to full and breaks all CC). You want them to be kited long enough that they die.

Locking them in place is, generally speaking, an emergency thing, only for use when the fight is almost over or as a really crazy last resort to prevent kiter death.
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Re: [10] Nefarian - Phase 3 Issues

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:32 am

Anyone got a video of this phase 3 I'll try to find some good ones. I definitly see us killing that tmrw.
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Re: [10] Nefarian - Phase 3 Issues

Postby ryL » Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:19 am

I've only done this in 25player, but I assume it's bascically the same mechanic.
You don't really have to kite the adds, your main concern should be keeping them out of the fire. There's nothing wrong in tanking them as long as possible, while moving them only, when the timer of shadowblaze runs out. They all spawn at the same time, so you ideally want them to die at the exact same time, as well. You need to move all of the adds out of the first fire immediately and then just move them twice or so so avoid the next firespawns. According to my experience you win, when every single add dies at the same time without touching a fire. After they are resurrected, it gets a bit more difficult and it's very hard to avoid all fires, but the boss should die before you do.
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Re: [10] Nefarian - Phase 3 Issues

Postby Brutalus » Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:21 am

I recorded our last kill of it when I'm kiting the adds in phase 3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTlZyZBVaOI
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Re: [10] Nefarian - Phase 3 Issues

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:26 am

Thank you soo much for the video I really think it will help. Just some other questions.

Our best attempt was actually 14 percent when we didn't try to prolong the air phase. Like we had it go up in the air, killed the adds, and it came back down. I did a fairly decent job at kiting I thought and we got pretty far, but was wondering how far everyone else was pushing?

We've been trying to push past 60, but then we notice that he'll just come down even though there is an add still up on the tank platform, and thats when you get that shadow of cowardice buff is if your still up there.

We've tried Blusting at the start and pushing nefarian down past 70 ( which was actually my favorite strat), but we went back to orginal way because damage wasn't high enough to get him to 70 percent and onny down we had a few wipes to do her enrage, because there are no stupid energy #'s.

Speaking of Which are there any mods than can give us like corrupted blood #'s, sound, I really hate those bars, its hard to judge 100 percent accurately with just a filling bar.

So what I guess I'm wondering is, is it better to just get to 65 percent and then bring him down. Or try to get lower.I'm thinking if I do my job right it wont be an issue no matter how long p3 last kind of.
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Re: [10] Nefarian - Phase 3 Issues

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:46 am

Double post, but forgot to mention spec eye for an eye for this. Every little bit counts, and it actually does quite a bit, especially if your on nef.I mean its worth the two talent points if thats what your asking.

I looked over logs, and eye for an eye was doing 200k per attempt, and that was without me even on neff. That was just damage from tanking onny, and then his shadow barrage. Those are big breaths, and its very worth it.
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Re: [10] Nefarian - Phase 3 Issues

Postby Brutalus » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:50 am

Our best attempt was actually 14 percent when we didn't try to prolong the air phase. Like we had it go up in the air, killed the adds, and it came back down. I did a fairly decent job at kiting I thought and we got pretty far, but was wondering how far everyone else was pushing?

We've been trying to push past 60, but then we notice that he'll just come down even though there is an add still up on the tank platform, and thats when you get that shadow of cowardice buff is if your still up there.

We've tried Blusting at the start and pushing nefarian down past 70 ( which was actually my favorite strat), but we went back to orginal way because damage wasn't high enough to get him to 70 percent and onny down we had a few wipes to do her enrage, because there are no stupid energy #'s.


In our 25man, we concluded that the best solution (for us) was to do:

Phase 1) 100% --> 73%

When we started on the fight we could only get Nefarian to about 78% before we had to kill Onxyia off, but with time (and gear) it got much better. We originally lusted in phase 1 but when we started to wipe sub 20% frequently in the last phase we moved bloodlust to phase 3 instead. The Nefarian crackle aoe lightning damage thing comes at every 10% of his health and gives Onyxia a truckload of electrical energy so I'm not sure if it's possible to push Nefarian to sub 70% in the first phase without Onxyia exploding.

Phase 2) 73% ---> 62%

Phase 2 ends after 3 minutes regardless of whether or not the adds are dead, that's probably what you're experiencing when you noticed he went down without adds being dead. Whether you can take him below 60% I suppose is reliant upon whether or not you can reliably survive the aoe crackle in the air phase with the shadowflame barrage going on. We found it easier and safer in the long-run to stop at 62% and just take the 70% aoe crackle in the air phase, when I have divine guardian available for the raid.

Phase 3) 62% ---> 0% (obviously)

We concluded lust was best served here, had 2 healers following me round, and had the main-tank turning the boss whenever I got near his face. On 25man at least, you can probably kill Nefarian off if the kiter dies at ~10% using armies, the other tank, and other implements of panic.
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Re: [10] Nefarian - Phase 3 Issues

Postby Arianne » Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:24 pm

Anyone with advice on how to heal the phase 1 -> 2 transition (magma ftl) in 25? Advice on how to get on the platform faster? I can usually do it with 3 stacks of Magma, which seems slightly slow. :\ I keep my jump key pressed, but I almost invariably go under and then jump and hit the side of the platform once or twice before getting on top. Stupid short dwarf legs...
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Re: [10] Nefarian - Phase 3 Issues

Postby Kerriodos » Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:59 pm

For 10 man we found paladin healers were generally extremely strong for the ledge phase--beacon one person, heal the other, lol-auto self healing. For any platforms that don't have holy paladins, try to include classes with strong self healing abilities such as prot paladins and enhancement shaman. Also make sure that people are spreading out in a triangle on the platform to minimize splash damage from Nefarian's shadowbolt.

As far as getting on the platform, dont hug the edge while the magma rises--there's a lip on the edge of the platform that will completely screw you. Take a few steps back and try it. Alternatively, some people were saying that once the magma has finished rising you can simply walk onto the platform, but I can't confirm that myself.

Anyways, we killed this the other night on 10 man. Our final strategy involved getting two electrocutions during each of the first two phases (two of which I was able to use Divine Guardian on). Once we hit phase three, we had a holy paladin with Righteous Fury on follow me around while I tanked adds--they'd spawn, run to him, and I'd take them off of him. To deal with the adds I basically just tanked them and made sure I was moving at all times, strafing if I saw a spark on the ground or heard Nefarian emote. I used no slows or snares, and only Holy Wrath'd once, right after a meteor had hit and I was caught between fire patches. I stunned them, the fire behind me despawned, and we continued onward to an easy, extremely clean kill. I felt that I could have quite easily continued to kite for another 20-30%, and my healer agreed.

One thing we decided in order to deal with the last few electrocutions was to lust at about 25%, burn quickly to 20%, heal up quickly with lust, and be at-or-below 10% before lust ended. After that, AoE is minimal so healers only needed to worry about the tanks with occasional triage on the raid, not topping everyone off.

Anyways, thanks everyone for all your input on the fight, it helped a lot! Now I just need to carry this over to 25 man, since Nefarian is our only normal mode encounter left. :)
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