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4.3 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theothersteve7 » Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:38 am

Funny you should ask, it looks like he's putting in the major revisions right now. To be fair it was mostly still accurate anyway.

Conc>AS>HW is only true for a specific count of mobs that are all identical and being focused equally by your DPS. Prioritizing Judgement low runs you out of mana, as does prioritizing Conc high. AS is vital for getting casters to follow you if you move. HW can stun some enemies. Fact is, right now, in an AOE situation we have a collection of abilities rather than a rotation. Which is awesome, in my opinion.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Gaxby » Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:50 am

I agree. It's awesome that in AoE, we have more options than "okay I'm not going to do the proper rotation, so I'm going to suck hardcore as a tank in AoE".
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:00 pm

It should all be updated for 4.0.3a now. Let me know if there's anything I missed.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theothersteve7 » Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:01 pm

theckhd wrote:It should all be updated for 4.0.3a now. Let me know if there's anything I missed.


Very nice!

The Glyph section could use a little reevaluation. It undervalues Glyph of Word of Glory, overvalues Glyph of Shield of the Righteous, and your comments on Glyph of Holy Wrath and Glyph of Hammer of Justice still reflect ICC sentiments. The talents all look great, though.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby PaxDefender » Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:16 pm

At the risk of having missed a reply about this, I want to discuss Protector of the Innocent for a moment. Everything I have seen mentioned in this thread states that it is of no use to us now that it won't proc from self-heals. I find myself using lots of my WoGs on people other than myself. Even in cases where I am not topped off, I will often be much further from death than another person might, so I heal them instead. For one thing, that is the entire point of mitigation/avoidance making health into EH, I will last longer even with less health. Plus, with PotI I can heal others more and thus be healed myself. I can think of little better to help the group recover from a phase of AoE damage.

I admit that I feel odd in actually considering installing healer add-ons to help me better manage my WoGs for the group. And I don't expect the current tank/healer role to continue forever. I also am not sure where I would move points from to get PotI. But in the end, I do not follow the notion that it is off the table completely.

Edit:
I forgot to mention on another topic. I don't use consecration anymore at all. I miss it some times, but I would miss all that mana more. There is nothing it does that I can't do without it, just takes a bit more work.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:08 pm

theothersteve7 wrote:The Glyph section could use a little reevaluation.

Oops. Updated.

PaxDefender wrote:At the risk of having missed a reply about this, I want to discuss Protector of the Innocent for a moment. Everything I have seen mentioned in this thread states that it is of no use to us now that it won't proc from self-heals. I find myself using lots of my WoGs on people other than myself. Even in cases where I am not topped off, I will often be much further from death than another person might, so I heal them instead. For one thing, that is the entire point of mitigation/avoidance making health into EH, I will last longer even with less health. Plus, with PotI I can heal others more and thus be healed myself. I can think of little better to help the group recover from a phase of AoE damage.


I honestly don't think that's reason enough to invest any points in PotI. It's still a crap talent for us. Note that when you heal others:
  • You don't get the extra 20% bonus from GbtL
  • Overheal isn't converted to a shield
  • You're running the risk of "wasting" healing from the actual healers by sniping their targets

On top of that, you need to find the points for it somewhere. Pursuit of Justice could free up two points, but I'd argue that point for point, Rule of Law does more for WoG than PotI does.

I've used WoG to help keep other players in raids a fair number of times, but not enough to make PotI worth taking. For the most part, you're better off dumping that healing on yourself if you're tanking.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Gaxby » Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:50 am

Is Raid-Wall completely irrelevant in 5-man dungeons? With the increase difficulty in heroics and the shortage of healer's mana, a 20% damage reduction to even 4 people is still useful on heavy AoE damage fights like Steelbender in BRC and Rajh in Halls of Origin. I agree that it's less than in a 10-man/25-man raid scenario, but it still has to be more useful than 1 point in Hallowed Ground since not only threat is not an issue, but you should not be spamming Consecration anyways.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:27 pm

Gaxby wrote:Is Raid-Wall completely irrelevant in 5-man dungeons?


Completely irrelevant? No. But I can count the number of times I've used it in heroics on one hand. And from the accounts I've been hearing, a lot of players are grinding through heroics spamming Consecration (and either speccing HG, or complaining loudly about the mana cost).

The truth is that there's no one "correct" way to play now. If you like to hit the Consecration button often, then HG can be a decent investment. Can you get the job done just as well without using Cons at all? Sure.

I figure that the players who are likely to be quick enough on their feet to use DG in 5-mans are already sporting a WoG spec. These aren't the type of players who come to this forum to read a Talent guide aimed at entry-level paladins (instead, they're the type that read over the guide and then post nitpicks for the guide author to address :P).

The type of player that's likely to read this guide and choose the heroic 5-man spec is dealing with overaggressive DPS and may be running into threat or mana problems due to lack of gear, experience, or both. They may also run into a bad healer here or there, but given one healer and 3 dps per random heroic, the latter will be more common.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby econ21 » Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:50 pm

It might be good to edit the discussion of the glyph of dazing shield. At the moment, it is rather dismissive. But I recall you writing elsewhere that sometimes you use it to help with CCing mobs and with kiting. Following what you wrote, I adopted the glyph and have been pleased with the results in 5 mans (nice for pvp too). With the importance of CC, it's like being back in Burning Crusade. But now our AS fires without the warning "charging up" period, so the mages etc have less time to get off their CC. The daze gives more time to apply CC before the mobs hit our AOE zone. I think it's worth mentioning, as most of the majors are rather underwhelming imo (except holy wrath, which we have discussed before).

On the minor glyphs, I remember reading an older glyph guide here which said the glyph for seal of wisdom was a smart glyph - as it reduced the mana cost of something that you would want to switch to when you are short of mana. I think the same point might apply to seal of insight: I've on occasion run dry but had to hold off switching seal due to lack of mana. More generally, I've now gone for the three seal minor glyphs. With kings and might being raid wide buffs, the old convenience argument for minor glyphs for them is gone (buffing the raid no longer requires you drink etc). By contrast, I am doing quite a bit of seal switching in both PvE and PvP; and I favor saving mana in combat over saving mana out of combat.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Gaxby » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:37 am

theckhd wrote:These aren't the type of players who come to this forum to read a Talent guide aimed at entry-level paladins (instead, they're the type that read over the guide and then post nitpicks for the guide author to address :P).


I see your point, but maybe "balanced spec for under-geared beginners" will make a better description, don't you think? :lol:

Regarding the nitpicking, remember that you can always nitpick my materials when I decide to write my first guide for the site...

FORESHADOWING? ;)
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby econ21 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:34 am

I finally ditched Hallowed Ground (for Grand Crusader). I had been reluctant as consecration is such an iconic ability for us, and the 80% mana reduction seems massive. However, it is working very well. I often switch to seal of insight, so I can still use consecration without catastrophic effects on my mana - even in PvP. And Grand Crusader is great for 5-mans - especially to help interrupting bosses (although rebuke from 4.06 will make that irrelevant).

I am now thinking of switching glyph of consecration to glyph of lay on hands. For 5-mans, lay on hands is a massive boost to survivability (e.g. when healer is down or you've stood in the fire) and the pace of heroics has slowed such at that a 7 min CD means it would be available for every boss fight and even nasty trash. By contrast, I would not miss consecration. I am very happy with my other two majors - holy wrath and dazing shield.

With kings and might increasing in mana cost, I am not sure I will switch my minors back to them. But right now, I seal switch a lot.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby econ21 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:14 pm

Am I right in thinking that, if you had to pick one, Glyph of Word of Glory is better than Glyph of Seal of Insight? It boosts the healing of the relevant ability by 10% rather than 5%. And WoG provides a burst of healing that may be better for survival than the trickle of healing from SoI. With neither glyph, my recount for a heroic reports WoG provided slightly less my healing than SoI (37% as opposed to 43%). I was not exclusively heal tanking - I did 53 WoGs and 78 ShoRs, 457 counts of SoI.

I am thinking of ditching Glyph of Seal of Truth as I seem to use SoI more and more.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:04 pm

I'm currently using both SoI and WoG glyphs for most fights. I'd say the WoG glyph is generally going to be more powerful simply because it's not negated by overheal thanks to GbtL. But that's just a guess based on estimated SoI healing.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Extermi » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:12 am

My impression (also from whacking a target dummy) was that the SOL glyph does not affect the healing from the seal itself, only from WoG and HR. This would reduce it benefit quite a bit, but it might still be the best choice in the current survival-heavy raid situations.

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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:39 am

I highly doubt that the glyph doesn't affect SoI. Not that it's impossible, but you'd need a pretty large data set to convincingly show a statistically significant 5% difference. Certainly not something you can estimate just from whacking a dummy.
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