Hit Rating and Expertise

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Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby towelliee » Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:00 pm

So far I see a lot of Paladin's not really caring about Expertise and Hit. Is it more logical to reforge for mastery?

Like Theck for example has 2 Expertise and 1.16% hit. I have 1% hit and 23 expertise. Theck is just an example because he is a God (not THE God).
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:22 am

towelliee wrote:So far I see a lot of Paladin's not really caring about Expertise and Hit. Is it more logical to reforge for mastery?


Yes.

Until you start hitting enrage timers because DPS is holding back, threat shouldn't even be on your radar.
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby theothersteve7 » Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:01 am

10 of your expertise are probably coming from the glyph - you may want to keep that in mind. If it isn't, then you're overkill on expertise.
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby theckhd » Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:50 am

I've been reforging away from threat as much as possible, for the most part. Threat is only an issue for the first 30 seconds of any of the fights I've seen so far (which is everything except Nefarian), and Tricks/MD cover that. It sucks when you miss 3 of your first 4 attacks on the boss, but that's what taunt is for.

Making taunts automatically hit was probably a big mistake on Blizzard's part. At least that gave us a defensive reason to keep reasonable levels of hit.
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby Chunes » Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:49 am

It's suboptimal for sure, but I'm actually reforged for hit/expertise to cap/softcap respectively for the current content. This is a quality of life thing for me since I'm still running a fair amount of heroics and threat is definitely sketchy with the guys I run with.

I am planning on reforging back to mastery as soon as we start to hit the last bosses in the dungeons currently and into heroics. For now though, I'm liking reliable shield slams and frisbee tosses.
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby theothersteve7 » Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:06 am

Yeah, I was thinking about picking up a couple hit/expertise pieces for wearing in a threat set. Only perfect piece I see is Pauldrons of the High Requiem, though.

Maybe I could equip both Eyes of Rajh. That would be cool. Not particularly optimal, but cool.

*EDIT* Oh, duh, engineering goggles would be a good place to start.
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby Rachmaninoff » Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:59 am

do any parry gibbs exist right now? or just mastery uber alles?
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby theckhd » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:02 pm

Rachmaninoff wrote:do any parry gibbs exist right now? or just mastery uber alles?

The word on the street is that the parry-haste flag has been turned off on all bosses. I don't know that anyone's done an exhaustive parse analysis to confirm that yet though.

Either way, the traditional "parry-gib" doesn't happen when the boss can't two-shot you, so it would probably be a minor concern at best with the current damage intake model.
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby Brutalus » Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:50 am

I just carry round 2 sets, one with hit cap and expertise soft cap (I can't get hardcap without wrecking my normal gear) and the other with all hit/expertise reforged into mastery or avoidance. On bosses like Atramedes or Argaloth (and to some degree Ascendent Council) where I have no concern of dying I just throw on the hit/expertise set to make the fight quicker and cheese WoL.

At the end of the day the amount of expertise and hit you have is up to you and what you're tanking. If you're tanking heroics, then hit and expertise are probably fine. If you're tanking heroic Halfus, you're going to want as much survivability as you can get your hands on. There's always a risk that a healer will die, disconnect, fail, oom, be busy, or whatever, so on most bosses I'd rather be on the safe side and carry round that 1% extra block chance, but I'm sure that as content gets farmed more and more I'll be seeing more and more tanking pieces being replaced with dps pieces.
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby amityafflict » Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:49 am

Don't dismiss exp and hit purely as threat, it's damage too. I know that sounds blazingly obvious but it just seems most people are overlooking this. Tanks can pull great dps, for aoe packs I usually find I'm sitting top 5 and single target damage can find that I'm capable sitting somewhere within the pack with a solid rotation and high vengeance uptime.
Why is this important to a tank? well often encounters are very tightly tuned around the damage, Nefarian, atremedes, maloriak. Having an extra 2-3k dps can be make or break in some situations especially p1 nef where you want to push his 80% before you kill ony. I apologize for the anecdotal evidence but I just wanted to shed some light to this subject.
The other point is that the current normal modes aren't tuned around tanks having high avoidance/block cap, most the heavy damage can be countered correctly with proper use of cooldowns so it really leaves a lot of room for threat stats to be desired. Yes, this does mean you will take more damage and yes healers will have to use more mana but it's not about treating yourself solely as a meatshield.
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby Treck » Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:51 am

amityafflict wrote:Don't dismiss exp and hit purely as threat, it's damage too. I know that sounds blazingly obvious but it just seems most people are overlooking this. Tanks can pull great dps, for aoe packs I usually find I'm sitting top 5 and single target damage can find that I'm capable sitting somewhere within the pack with a solid rotation and high vengeance uptime.

It IS damage aswell, and not only threat, however the discussion hit/exp is more about sacrificing survivability for the sake of gaining more threat/dps.
This obviously means that on fights where survivability isnt an issue, going for threat/dps isnt a bad thing.
Also, on aoefights, expertise does nothing to your threat really, but since Hammer/AVS/consecration would benefit from hit its not a bad thing getting, if you can sacrifice the survivability.

I wouldt sacrifice much for some exp/hit really.
SS doesnt waste HP if missed, and CS still generates HP even if missed.
Those alone are enought to generate sufficient threat at the start.
I sometimes see 3 up to 4 miss/dodge/parry'd SSes the first few sec of a fight, but once that SS hits threat just isnt an issue.
A missed Judgement will most of the time go by unnoticed, AVS can usually not be relied upon to interrupt anyway and low hit will make it less reliable.
So for me it doesnt really look like hit will make any gamebreaking differance, as for min/maxing. surviving is more important thus this comes behind.
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby fuzzygeek » Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:18 pm

I don't think people are "overlooking" tank DPS so much as they are dismissing it.

In the grand scheme of things, if eeking out 1k-2K more DPS from the tank is going to make the difference between a kill and a wipe, I would suggest telling DPS to figure out how to do 117-250 more DPS each (assuming 25 or 10m) so the tank can focus on staying alive instead. Or, perhaps if the tank was more focused on avoidance and mitigation they could swap a DPS for a healer and increase RDPS by 12k.

It's a question of focusing on strengths instead of weaknesses.
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby amityafflict » Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:11 pm

I'm not questioning survivability's priority over damage, my comment was only made over something that I felt was being neglected. I'm only entering hm's this week so I'll be able rectify my comment on incoming damage.
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby kakashi » Sun Jan 02, 2011 5:56 am

theckhd wrote:
Rachmaninoff wrote:do any parry gibbs exist right now? or just mastery uber alles?

The word on the street is that the parry-haste flag has been turned off on all bosses. I don't know that anyone's done an exhaustive parse analysis to confirm that yet though.

Either way, the traditional "parry-gib" doesn't happen when the boss can't two-shot you, so it would probably be a minor concern at best with the current damage intake model.



This...

As I recall (off the top of my head) wasn't expertise around 80% as good as dodge before the softcap, due to parry hastes?
Anyways would be really interested if anyone had some solid evidence of parry hastes being turned off or not.
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Re: Hit Rating and Expertise

Postby amityafflict » Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:44 pm

if I recall correctly it was somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 as effective as dodge, but was 4x more effective at smoothing out the damage.
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