Remove Advertisements

Ghostcrawler speaks about future patches

Anything, including off-topic posts

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: Ghostcrawler speaks about future patches

Postby superworm » Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:20 pm

I think in heroics it's not uncommon for a frost DK to activate pillar of frost and possibly some trinkets each trash pack at the start of the fight, and in this way their burst dps/tps can be really high. For sustained dps it's possibly to reach 18k~19k but I believe it requires 372 equipment. According to EJ the highest dps spec for DK is DW unholy, which was also addressed by GC.
User avatar
superworm
 
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:56 pm

Re: Ghostcrawler speaks about future patches

Postby tlitp » Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:18 pm

DJSticky wrote:
theckhd wrote:
Ghostcrawler wrote:Threat seems to be in a good place -- good tanks don’t have much of a problem, but they can’t “phone it in” either.

Bullshit. When the best tanks in the world, playing with the best DPS in the world, can:
  • tank with Seal of Insight
  • dump all of their holy power into WoG
  • spec every survivability talent possible
  • run with under 1% hit and 10 expertise thanks to reforging
and still have 3x the threat of the nearest DPS class within the first minute of an encounter, something's not right. They damn well can phone it in, which is why they can completely ignore threat in current content.

So here's the question. Who DOESN"T tank with seal of insight and WoG nearly 100% of the time? Every I've talked to shares the same experience.

I thoroughly dislike this "word", yet it suits the situation rather well : meh. A giant fucking meh.

We can get reasonable approximations for the DPS output. We can estimate the DPS/HPS trade-off in switching SoT to SoI, or in switching X% DPS-oriented finishers to WoG. Yet these numbers are utterly meaningless; they don't tell you what you're really interested in.

Trading (e.g.) 1000 DPS for 1000 HPS is worth it if, and only if, it can be associated with an increase in the probability to successfully complete a given scenario (from "just defeat the fucker, however you do it" to achievements, to power runs). What is available, in order to assess it ? Neither the tools, neither the knowledge. The said probability, the "holy grail" of tanking, is all but unquantifiable. Which is fine, mighty fine - barring one side effect; it opens the door to the realm of "gut feelings".

Yes, probably a lot of paladins find themselves using (extensively) WoG/SoI/weird talent setups. Why ? Probably because they feel that it's a better idea. I've said it once, I'll say it again : "ex nihilo nihil fit : if it's not quantifiable, it's not worth discussing".

PS. A fair warning to anyone that feels inclined to throw a "if everybody does so, it must be the right thing to do" : save yourself the hassle. You'll get laughed off the internet.
User avatar
tlitp
 
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:25 pm

Re: Ghostcrawler speaks about future patches

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:57 am

As an 85 frost DK... I have to say it can be difficult at times to ignore the Rime proc. If there is CC that is a little close, I'll switch back to using IT instead, but this may not be the "norm" for most frost DKs. Would be nice if HB was "smart" in not hitting CC'd targets, but then it would be even more OP and would likely get nerfed.
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3940
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: Ghostcrawler speaks about future patches

Postby knaughty » Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:45 pm

tlitp wrote:Trading (e.g.) 1000 DPS for 1000 HPS is worth it if, and only if, it can be associated with an increase in the probability to successfully complete a given scenario (from "just defeat the fucker, however you do it" to achievements, to power runs). What is available, in order to assess it ? Neither the tools, neither the knowledge. The said probability, the "holy grail" of tanking, is all but unquantifiable. Which is fine, mighty fine - barring one side effect; it opens the door to the realm of "gut feelings".


But there are some arguments that allow you to make logical determinations about what we should be doing with WoG vs Threat builds and survivability vs threat rotations (SoI/WoG vs SoV/ShoR).

What's the basic role and tank priority for a tank?
  1. Retain aggro. If the mobs are hitting someone else, everything else is moot. DPS can stuff you here, especially in AE situations, that's their fault.
  2. Survive the incoming damage. You execute this task in co-operation with your healers.
  3. Optimise (1) and (2) - allow your DPS to go all-out from nice and early. Retain aggro on secondary targets when DPS are AEing or doing a lot of splash. Smooth out incoming damage so your healers can heal you efficiently and don't go OOM. Pop CDs at the right time so your healers can save theirs.
  4. Do some extra damage above what's required for (1) to help out DPS with their role: Kill the target.

There have been extremely rare situations where DPS requirements are so tight that (4) gets valued higher, but they're very rare. The last one that really mattered to me was Brutalus. Yes... level 70. LK-hard was a massive DPS race, but it was solved by working on 2 & 3 so that we could take an extra DPS over an extra healer.

Given the relative positions of (2) and (4) on that list, I think you can safely make the follow statement:

TPS in excess of that required to comfortably hold aggro on the target while DPS are able to go all-out is of less value than the self-healing for WoG/SoI

You have to remember that while we can do triple the TPS of a DPS if we go all out... that's still only the same damage as a DPS. They outnumber you 3:1 in a 5-man, 5:1 or 6:1in a 10-man or at least 15:1 in a 25-man. Your damage is not significant.

If you really want to be analytical about it, you can compare fight length reduction from tank DPS to self healing done as a proportion of healing received.

As an off-the-cuff example:
  • Assume 25-man raid.
  • Assume full threat build/rotation is same damage as a DPS. Full heal is half damage.
  • Doing full damage is roughly a 3% reduction in fight length.
  • Thus: If your self-healing is more than 3% of your healing received, then SoI/WoG is the correct tactic
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

Re: Ghostcrawler speaks about future patches

Postby Flex » Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:11 pm

knaughty wrote:[*]Thus: If your self-healing is more than 3% of your healing received, then SoI/WoG is the correct tactic[/list]


I'd say it is only the correct tactic if your self healing is integral to you not dying. Which has to take into account are you actually saving your healers mana or are you actually increasing their overheal,
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 7500
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: Ghostcrawler speaks about future patches

Postby DJSticky » Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:18 pm

I think we can draw some conclusions just as Knaughty mentioned. For my own personal use I don't even go that in depth. When I am able to consistently self heal for large amounts it provides several benefits.

-Smooths spike damage via proper timing
-Frees up healer mana for self preservation or tight situations
-Ability to save your healer's/DPS's life in emergency especially when combined with other utility, Hand of Sac, Hand of Protection etc.

What really makes this an easy choice for me is the shear amount of healing done. I may be reading more into this then there really is but feel free to correct me if so. Here are two examples from last nights raid.

Our first Ascendant Councel kill. Healing taken percentages.

Code: Select all
Healing taken from
Actor        Amount
Noobê        587131    18.8 %
Zyyzx        458213    14.7 %
Vee        453774    14.6 %
Heelzer     431727    13.9 %
Djsticky    389227    12.5 % <--
Utap        386576    12.4 %
Mystywake   313725    10.1 %
Megacat     63859    2.0 %
Guardian of Ancient Kings    32392    1.0 %
Laera    314    0.0 %


Conclave of Wind 25. Healing taken percentages.
Code: Select all
Healing taken from
Actor        Amount
Zyyzx        114885    35.1 %
Djsticky    110906    33.9 %<--
Áonoma        46673    14.3 %
Mystywake   26495    8.1 %
Megacat     19390    5.9 %
Heelzer     9016    2.8 %

I really feel that when you are consistently able to heal yourself such a large percentage of the healing required to stay alive there is no question that is a huge benefit. Sure it is possible that you are simply causing the healers to over heal, however if your healers are aware of your play style and are "used to healing you", it's no different then having another healer doing split duty on you and another tank or the raid or w/e.

That said, once I start seeing my DPS consistantly making me over exert to maintain threat, I won't think twice about switching SoI glyph for SoV. I don't for see dropping the WoG any time soon though.
Image
DJSticky
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:09 am

Re: Ghostcrawler speaks about future patches

Postby inthedrops » Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:45 pm

Respectfully, algorithms trying to determine when to use WoG over DPS is not something I would place much weight on.

There are times when one is smarter than the other, and it varies at any given second. Use yer noggin.
inthedrops
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1281
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:19 am

Re: Ghostcrawler speaks about future patches

Postby DJSticky » Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:52 pm

inthedrops wrote:Respectfully, algorithms trying to determine when to use WoG over DPS is not something I would place much weight on.

There are times when one is smarter than the other, and it varies at any given second. Use yer noggin.


Bolded for troof
Image
DJSticky
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:09 am

Re: Ghostcrawler speaks about future patches

Postby knaughty » Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:41 am

Flex wrote:
knaughty wrote:[*]Thus: If your self-healing is more than 3% of your healing received, then SoI/WoG is the correct tactic


I'd say it is only the correct tactic if your self healing is integral to you not dying. Which has to take into account are you actually saving your healers mana or are you actually increasing their overheal,


That's a skill problem on their part.

inthedrops wrote:Respectfully, algorithms trying to determine when to use WoG over DPS is not something I would place much weight on.

There are times when one is smarter than the other, and it varies at any given second. Use yer noggin.


I was specifically replying to Tilip saying that it's impossible to algorithmically determine which is better - WoG or ShoR. I was merely refuting that statement.

Personally, I've never analysed the issue prior to my post, I just "went with my gut" - or to use your terminology "Used my noggin!. I use SoV for the pull, as soon as I have a decent threat lead, or sooner if my health is low, I switch to WoG. If we're killing the target massively faster than healer mana is going down, switch back to ShoR (unless low health) simply to speed the kill by a poofteenth.
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

Re: Ghostcrawler speaks about future patches

Postby tlitp » Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:38 am

knaughty wrote:If you really want to be analytical about it, you can compare fight length reduction from tank DPS to self healing done as a proportion of healing received.
As an off-the-cuff example:
  • Assume 25-man raid.
  • Assume full threat build/rotation is same damage as a DPS. Full heal is half damage.
  • Doing full damage is roughly a 3% reduction in fight length.
  • Thus: If your self-healing is more than 3% of your healing received, then SoI/WoG is the correct tactic

  • The reduction of the encounter's duration isn't an elementary function of the (r)DPS output, except for Patchwerk-style encounters.
  • It's very hard to evaluate the HTPS metric analytically, except for Patchwerk-style encounters.
  • There isn't any obvious (read : analytically solvable) correlation between the tank's HTPS and the reduction of the encounter's duration.

As for Paperplate's comment : yeah, "do what you have to do and hope for the best". Which is fine, as already stated. Just remember to avoid making (analytical) generalizations out of (a handful of) empirical data sets.
User avatar
tlitp
 
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:25 pm

Re: Ghostcrawler speaks about future patches

Postby Fetzie » Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:53 pm

not wanting to break the train of thought, but...

Censure will no longer break Repentance.


How many times have we heard this line before?
Fetzie | Protection Paladin | EU-Kazzak
Author of the TankSpot Protection Paladin Guide
Image
Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
User avatar
Fetzie
 
Posts: 2194
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:43 am
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Re: Ghostcrawler speaks about future patches

Postby theckhd » Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:51 am

tlitp wrote:As for Paperplate's comment : yeah, "do what you have to do and hope for the best". Which is fine, as already stated. Just remember to avoid making (analytical) generalizations out of (a handful of) empirical data sets.


I think that analytical (or more accurately, quantifiable) generalizations are going to be tough/impossible to make. Certainly encounter length is not a useful metric for most fights. And never has been for true "progression" outside of parse-hunting. If you take less damage because the encounter was 5 seconds shorter, but your healers still have half their mana pool, what have you really accomplished?

However, qualitative ones are fairly easy to hammer out. As you said, the goal is to "just fucking kill it already." So we have to look at the failure modes of the encounter (i.e., "why did we wipe?").

The usual culprits:
  1. Tank died, insufficient heal throughput
  2. DPS or Healer died, insufficient heal throughput
  3. T/D/H died, stood in fire
  4. DPS too low to reach enrage/phase timer
  5. DPS pulled aggro, died

The goal is to minimize the number of failures. If wipes consistently happen because of (1) or (2), then your self-healing is generally going to do more to minimize the wipe probability than your DPS will. It's only when (4) or (5) become frequent occurrences that our DPS starts becoming valuable. So far, I've seen one fight where (4) occurred, and that was Ascendant Council phase 3 during the first week or two of Cataclysm. That had more to do with undergeared DPS and a melee-heavy comp than anything.

The truth is, given 30 seconds with any boss and a TotT or Misdirect, (5) becomes completely irrelevant. More often than not, healer mana or throughput (i.e. someone didn't get healed enough and died) is what seems to be causing our wipes. If my self-healing frees up a few GCDs for the healers, which in turn prevents a death, that can easily turn a wipe into a kill.

While there's no realistic (analytical) way to say "X self-healing is worth Y DPS," we can do a bit better than gut feeling.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7801
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Ghostcrawler speaks about future patches

Postby tlitp » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:59 am

theckhd wrote:DPS or Healer died, insufficient heal throughput

Let's weed out the boring subcases :
  • human error ("eat voidzone")
  • human error (prioritization misjudgement : "person X should survive if I cast one extra ability on the tank; whoops, person X didn't survive, after all")
  • technical problems (lag/disconnects/hiccups)
  • the healer is severely undergeared
  • the healer is effectively "GCD-capped" ("I can't cast 2+ abilities in the same GCD")

The interesting question is : are there any circumstances (outside of the aforementioned ones) where the healer's resource management (in this case, the mana pool) simply does not allow liberal usage of his/her ability toolbox ? If so, indirect throughput (via tank's ability toolbox) is justifiable. The decision (chain) would still be not quantifiable, but at least somewhat justifiable. :P
User avatar
tlitp
 
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:25 pm

Re: Ghostcrawler speaks about future patches

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:13 am

tlitp wrote:
theckhd wrote:DPS or Healer died, insufficient heal throughput

Let's weed out the boring subcases :
  • human error ("eat voidzone")
  • human error (prioritization misjudgement : "person X should survive if I cast one extra ability on the tank; whoops, person X didn't survive, after all")
  • technical problems (lag/disconnects/hiccups)
  • the healer is severely undergeared
  • the healer is effectively "GCD-capped" ("I can't cast 2+ abilities in the same GCD")

The interesting question is : are there any circumstances (outside of the aforementioned ones) where the healer's resource management (in this case, the mana pool) simply does not allow liberal usage of his/her ability toolbox ? If so, indirect throughput (via tank's ability toolbox) is justifiable. The decision (chain) would still be not quantifiable, but at least somewhat justifiable. :P

It's a bit unfair to rule out that second bullet, because the tank having higher health certainly affects healer prioritization judgments.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9666
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Ghostcrawler speaks about future patches

Postby theckhd » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:38 am

tlitp wrote:The interesting question is : are there any circumstances (outside of the aforementioned ones) where the healer's resource management (in this case, the mana pool) simply does not allow liberal usage of his/her ability toolbox ? If so, indirect throughput (via tank's ability toolbox) is justifiable. The decision (chain) would still be not quantifiable, but at least somewhat justifiable. :P


I would argue that yes, those circumstances exist in current raid content. It will obviously depend on a lot of factors (10 vs 25, healer composition, encounter type, rDPS), but there are definitely encounters in which certain healer compositions will struggle during a given phase or run OOM before the end of the fight.

That said, even your "boring" subcases can't be entirely ignored (excpet maybe "eat voidzone / stood in fire," for which the tank DPS/HPS tradeoff is probably irrelevant). If the tank has a steady self-HPS income, a healer familiar with the tank may be less likely to make the prioritization misjudgement (point 2), and the tank may survive a case of technical difficulty (point 3) that he would otherwise not. It can also help compensate for undergeared healers (point 4).
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7801
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
?php } else { ?