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"Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Fivelives » Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:11 pm

The thing is though, that BAH is given to single soldiers as well. Barracks living isn't as bad as you're making it out to be - I've been there, and unless things have gone way downhill in the last decade, which I highly doubt, it's not "up to 4 people per roach infested room". Also, the chow hall is free for barracks living soldiers. It's the "special" restaurants that are usually attached to the chow hall (or the PX) that cost money.

BAH is adjusted for pay grade and location. If you're stationed in Beverly Hills (90210 area code) as an E-1, you'll be getting $1932/month with dependents, $1470 without. Now let's try a random zip code somewhere, for giggles let's say ... Hell, MI. Living in Hell as an E-1 off base will get you $1224 as an E-1 with dependents, $927 without. Conversely, as an E-5 in Beverly Hills, you'd get $2175 with dependents, $1632 without, and in Hell you'd get $1326 with, $1056 without. There's a nifty BAH calculator at http://www.defensetravel.dod.mil/site/bahCalc.cfm if you're interested in seeing other locations.

Now consider that money has to cover rent, utilities, groceries, vehicle maintenance (I don't know many married couples that don't have at least two cars), etc... It's basically what it "costs" the military to house a single soldier in the barracks, only adjusted for location. Also consider that the lights are never turned off in the barracks (common areas and hallways, at least), the temperature controls are set for comfort in all seasons (I know plenty of families that'll use fans and open windows instead of the a/c in the summer to save on energy bills, or bundle up with blankets and extra layers in the winter), and you begin to see where the cost of barracks living begins to add up.

Try living on BAH + salary, it's not as easy as you're making it out to be. Even with both spouses working (and in this economy, that's not a guarantee), it's still worse for married couples living off base than it is for single soldiers in the barracks. It's not discrimination by marital status, it's the same benefit single soldiers get, only in monetary form rather than "here, have a place to live on us". That's the exact opposite of discrimination.

The "free medical care" is such a fucking joke it's not even funny. I spent 53 weeks at Walter Reed, which is supposedly the "best" military medical facility in the united states. Don't even get me started on that - base clinics are even worse, with appointments being scheduled months in advance, or not at all. The urgent care clinics ... hell, I've seen better urgent care in the field under combat conditions. Same with the dentists - the only things that are free are check-ups and extractions. If you want a crown or other cosmetic dentistry work, you pay for it yourself using dental insurance that isn't through Tri-Care. If you don't believe me, then check your Tri-Care information or give them a call at 1-888-tri-west.

The life insurance is about equivalent to what you'd pay for the same coverage as a civilian - the exception being that you can't be declined coverage under SGLI for any reason, unlike civilians, where there are quite a few reasons the insurance companies can decline to offer you coverage.

If you enter the service as an E-1, you're looking at a year to E-2, another year and a half to E-3, and another year to two years to E-4 (year for E-4 specialist, 2 for E-4 corporal). And it's not just a matter of time in rank for the promotion to corporal (which is "officially" an NCO rank, if not technically one), and even less for E-5 and above. The vast majority of enlisted personnel will never go beyond specialist e-4, which is definitely not an NCO grade. So your whole "wait until you make sergeant" argument flies out the window there - I've known people who retired after 30 years as an E-4(spec). Granted, that example is rare in the extreme, but it's not so rare as to be completely unknown. Generally you're looking at at least 6 years in service before making E-5, even if you're an outstanding soldier that's obviously got leadership qualities in abundance. How many people do you know that will wait 6 years before marrying their high school sweetheart? You have to factor in reality somewhere - there's also the whirlwind romances over a 2 year stint in a foreign country. Are you just supposed to say "well, these last 2 years have been great, but I have to go now. Bai."? I think not.

General McChrystal was right on that policy. Being in the suck is not the place to be breeding like rabbits. Soldiers can get birth control through their chaplains or their sick call - shit, almost every care package we got from home had a package of condoms in it. Getting pregnant or impregnating someone in theater is an obvious sign of a failure to adapt, not only that but irresponsible as well.

You mention a 1 in 5 statistic. Considering that the divorce rate nationwide is over 60% and rising yearly, I'd say that a 20% increase in the divorce rate isn't exactly unthinkable considering the conditions and hardships those marriages have to endure that civilian marriages never will (unless you're married to a deep sea fisherman or offshore oil rig worker). Compare it to the divorce rate among cops, which is the closest that "most" civilians will ever have to endure - how many cops do you know that are happily married? Yeah.

To close this TL;DR post, I'm of the opinion that there is no way a soldier can EVER be paid "too much", considering the sacrifices we make. You mentioned giving up civil rights, but there's also the whole "you could get called on to risk your life at any time" aspect of it. So what if it's tax-free? Who cares? Hell, I'll pay double taxes if it means that even one soldier has an easier time of it, and I'm in the "hey, you get to pay 40% of your gross income to the government" tax bracket.
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Brekkie » Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:30 pm

Only being able to speak for my own branch, single Marines being granted permission to live out in town and receive BAH/BAS is almost completely unheard of before Staff Sergeant (E-6) or higher. It pretty much never happens. Lots of E-1s living out in town with a stripper they married though.

The barracks example was from my personal experience. Because I've lived there. 4 people to a room, roach infestation, black mold in the bathroom, one bathroom shared between 8 people. And I know Marines that have had it worse than that. When my previous unit had just got back from deployment and a bunch of the senior guys decided they were going to get out of the service, they kicked all of them out of the barracks and put them on cots in a warehouse to make room for the new shipment of boots. They even tried to offer the combat veterans the right to get back a shared barracks room as a reenlistment incentive.

I remember once we discovered that a nearby air force barracks building was about to be condemned as uninhabitable and rebuilt. Our barracks manager quickly gathered up as many Marines as she could find and we headed over to the condemned building in pick up trucks to scavenge. We broke in and took chairs, wall lockers, mattresses, microwaves, and carpets; all things that our own barracks didn't have nearly enough of. At the time there was one microwave per floor, only a quarter of our building had rugs, and several rooms had no mattresses and Marines slept on cots. Those mattresses we had were mostly vietnam era, and had originally been similarly scavenged from a hospital, so most of them smelled like blood.
We unscrewed doors from their hinges and carried them back too to replace ones in our building that didn't close, were broken, or simply absent. It was like New Orleans post-Katrina.

The Marine Corps has been trying to replace it's aging barracks for decades, but the money always gets pulled. There is overcrowding, poor maintenance, and often no heating, air conditioning, or sometimes even electricity. One of the major reasons the Marine Corps was against DADT repeal was because of our billeting issues. 67% of Marine combat arms said that it would affect their unit negatively, and a big reason for this is we don't have the ability for commands to resolve conflicts by rebilleting. In the air force or the army, if someone has a conflict, you can just give them a different room. We don't have that luxury.

As for the chow hall, No, it is not free. Whoever told you that is mistaken. I did TAD with the chow hall for a while, and their system works by confiscation of all the single service members' congressionally allotted BAS. The system assumes and requires that every single service member eats every single meal, every single day, at the chow hall and requires no other source of food or drink. Realistically, this never happens. Training tempo and operational requirements often mean service members work odd hours. Even if you get the opportunity to eat at the chow hall a lot of the time, you still have to buy your own groceries. Married service members always get a better deal, because they can do whatever they want. They receive their BAS allotment with their pay, and also have the option to eat at the chow hall too, and simply pay the exact same "price" single service members supposedly pay for each meal (even though that doesn't account for the average number of meals they actually get to attend).



You are right that there is no sense in taking away money from service members, in any case. That's not what I'm suggesting. What I object to is the imbalance. Effort needs to be put in improving the quality of life for the single junior enlisted, and removing the incentive towards rushing off to get married as some kind of "escape".
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:21 pm

Well I can speak to my situation in the Air Force. Our dorms were basically luxury college dorms. The dorms were co-ed and we each had our own room, which was pretty big and had an outside entrance. We had our own AC/Heaters in our rooms. At the middle of each floor was a day room with a big screen TV (before HD) pool table etc. BAH was authorized based on availability. When there were more people coming in than the dorms could hold, they'd kick out the senior people and give them BAH. It probably took around 2-3 years for your turn, but certainly you'd get BAH well before E-6, mostly E-3's and E-4's were getting it.

In the Air Force, if you get BAS you can not eat all meals in the dining hall, just one meal a day is authorized and none for your family. You also had to pay a surcharge, above what was withheld for those getting BAS. Don't get me wrong, you can eat a ton of food for $2.00, but that's how the figures worked.

Also if your duties kept you from having 3 meal a day access to the dining hall, you would be given BAS even though you still lived in the dorms. This was not uncommon at all for various shift workers. Though it varies by base as some bases have dining halls that cater to the different shifts, my base did not. At the very least, you could file a miss-meal anytime your duties unexpectedly kept you from having access, and you would be reimbursed for the meal you missed.

I lived in Montgomery AL, which has a pretty low cost of living, and I definitely would have lost money (by comparison to living in the dorms) by receiving BAH because expenses would have far outpaced my BAH.

One note from above though, it's not possible to be an E-4 (the old buck sergeant rank excepted) in the Air Force with 30 years, in fact you can't even come close. The High Year of Tenure for an E-4 is 12 years, at which point you are separated. You have to at least reach NCO status by 12 years, and frankly that's probably way below average. Of those that re-enlist, I'd be surprised if more than 5% don't reach an NCO rank by the end of 8 years. The majority of those enlisted may not reach E-4 but only if you count those that get out of the Air Force after their first enlistment of 4 years, when it's nearly impossible (depending on timing) to get above E-4 anyhow.

You can make a reasonable case about extra pay for dependents, but the BAH/BAS case is a much tougher sell, I think it's a reasonably equitable system.

So the lesson to take from this...don't join the Marines unless you don't qualify for one of the other branches :lol:
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:29 pm

Brekkie wrote:Only being able to speak for my own branch, single Marines being granted permission to live out in town and receive BAH/BAS is almost completely unheard of before Staff Sergeant (E-6) or higher.


Well there's your problem... you joined the Marines :lol: .

Being in the AF, I've had mostly the same experience as Fridmarr. Also, of note, once you make E-4 and have 3 years TIS, you're able to move out of the dorms regardless of how many open dorms are there. You can only get BAH prior to that if 1) you're married, 2) the dorm capacity reaches 90% or higher. Something to keep in mind... if the dorms drop below 90%, you CAN lose your BAH benefits if you don't meet the E-4/3 yrs requirement. Also, some locations (Korea for example) weren't allowing dependants to come with you, and even E-5/6 were still living in the dorms (I think a lot of that has changed, but I haven't been to Korea to check :wink: ).

Also, I'm not sure if this is just because I'm stationed in Germany atm, but I've had more then one meal a day while getting BAS. Haven't done that in awhile, but was usually breakfast, and potentially lunch. Just because it was more convenient.

Another thing, I think part of the extra pay was also to allow "stay-at-home" spouses, so that there wouldn't be hardship (having to pay someone to take care of the kids while the non-mil is at work, if the kids aren't school age) when the military member gets deployed. And... since this is the DADT discussion, look at it this way, same-sex relationships are FAR less likely to produce kids :P .
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Fivelives » Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:45 am

My experience comes from the Army, and second-hand from my cousin in the Marines. I'd be willing to bet that your experience was an outlier, Brekkie, and when was it? Both of my MOSs (that's a hard acronym to pluralize, by the way) were combat arms, and while I wouldn't exactly call the barracks "luxury", they were clean, kept up well, and healthy. I've been stationed in Ft Lewis, Ft Knox, Ft Hood, Ft Leonard Wood, and Vilseck Germany. Other than floor layouts, they were all relatively big rooms with two to a room and attached bathrooms - we didn't have the old boot camp dormitory living.

We had the choice between BAS and chow hall privileges. If the military feeds you, they don't give you grocery money on top of it - that just makes sense. It's not being "taken away", unless you have some sense of entitlement and/or are trying to game the system.

In the Army, there are two E-4 ranks. Specialists and Corporals. Specialists generally aren't on a promotion track - they do their job, it's the equivalent of a career track, and it's rare to see a specialist get promoted to sergeant (E-5). Corporals are only corporals until there's an NCO opening, then they're sent to NCO school and promoted. The ones you see doing 30 and out in the Army as E-4s are specialists. I'm not entirely sure about other branches, but I don't think they have that system in place.

I had a friend in the AF who was pissed because she kept getting passed over on the promotion lists for her promotion to E-6 - is it like that at E-5 too? They generally don't promote people past "enlisted" unless there's a need for them, e.g. someone dies or retires and leaves a spot open. It would be silly if all that it took to make NCO rank was time in service, you'd eventually end up with too many chiefs and not enough indians.
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:32 am

In the AF, to promote from E-4 to E-5 to E-6 to E-7, you take a test(sometimes two, depending on your job.) The first test is based off the PDG (Professional Development Guide), the second (if you have to take it) is based off your CDCs (Career Development Courses.) These tests are given over a one month period for each rank (E-4 to E-5 is April/May timeframe) and then get sent off to be scored. The score lists are released (for E-4 to E-5) in August. The total scores factor in Time-in-Grade (TIG), Time-in-Service (TIS), certain awards/ribbons, your (usually yearly) evalution reports (EPR), and the scores for the tests. They then stack everyone by score, and say we need X number of people to promote. They figure out what the lowest score is that will give them that number of people, and those people will get a Line Number. The line number basically just says you're awaiting promotion, and depending on what your number is, when you will promote. The line number isn't based off the scores though, it's determine by TIG, then TIS, then birth date.

For E-7 to E-8/E-9, they have promotion boards. Packages are submitted, and you present yourself before the board. If you meet certain criteria, you might get selected for E-8/9. Typically, only 2% of the force make it to E-8, and 1% to E-9 (at least, that was the rates when I last checked.)

So, you don't really have to worry about the chiefs/indians thing (for AF anyway.) Though if someone hasn't made E-5 by the time they reach High Year of Tenure (HYT.) Then they were probably demoted at some point in their career or have some "issue" that prevents them from being promoted, but hasn't been a big enough issue to get them the boot.


As far as Guard/Reserves... they do things completely differently and a lot of times, you'll have to wait for someone to retire/die before you can reach some ranks.
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Brekkie » Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:01 am

Our promotion system is fairly in line with the AF's. E1-E3 is TIG promotion, then E4 and E5 are based off "cutting scores", which work like the AF line scores. Our personal scores are based on a computation of our fitness tests, marksmanship score, self-education, TIG, TIS, and your proficiency and conduct evaluation marks. The figure out how many people they need to promote (X), and then count down and figure out what the cut-off is that will give them that many selectees. They publish new cutting scores every month.
At E5 you start getting evaluated with a more comprehensive Fitness Report, and stand paper boards by a selection committee for promotion to E6 and above.

Typically, 3 years TIS is average for reaching Corporal (E-4), the first NCO rank, which puts most people at age 21. Another year and a half or so should give you Sergeant (E-5) if you are doing what you are supposed to. Some MOSs promote faster or slower than others. Machine Gunners and Reconnaissance tend to promote faster than Rifleman and Assaultman, for example, but the difference is not that pronounced.
The big trend is that if you aren't getting promoted in a reasonable fashion, you probably haven't bothered doing any of your self education and professional skills training, and so are lacking those points.

We don't have a chiefs/indians issue because we have a really low first-term retention rate (gee, go figure), so 60% of the Marine corps is E3 and below.

My experiences are relatively recent, since I'm still in service and enlisted in 2007, though I currently don't live on a base because I'm on special duty assignment to the US Embassy Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, and the Department of State takes care of us here. Some places are better/worse than others (Marine Air Station Miramar is pretty nice), but we definitely have a lot of terrible conditions on some of our bases. The overcrowding is real, as are the decrepit facilities.
If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say a lot of it comes down to money. It's a very poor branch, the red headed step child of the DoD. They don't grant permission for even NCOs to live off base because they simply don't have the money to give them, and if they let some people do it it would start of flood of people trying to also.

I got a chuckle out of the description of the AF barracks. The one time I've been stationed with zoomies, they all got extra pay for having to stay in conditions that were "below Air Force quality", as well as hazardous duty pay (this is in CONUS mind) because they were in close proximity with Marines.

So I guess the moral of the story is, don't join the Marines.
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:41 am

Brekkie wrote:I got a chuckle out of the description of the AF barracks. The one time I've been stationed with zoomies, they all got extra pay for having to stay in conditions that were "below Air Force quality", as well as hazardous duty pay (this is in CONUS mind) because they were in close proximity with Marines.

So I guess the moral of the story is, don't join the Marines.


This made me lol...only because I know it happens :lol: . Well the "sub-standard" living anyway, haven't heard about the hazardous duty pay before.

also: http://www.afblues.com/wordpress/2008/08/07/08072008/
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:23 am

Fivelives wrote:I had a friend in the AF who was pissed because she kept getting passed over on the promotion lists for her promotion to E-6 - is it like that at E-5 too? They generally don't promote people past "enlisted" unless there's a need for them, e.g. someone dies or retires and leaves a spot open. It would be silly if all that it took to make NCO rank was time in service, you'd eventually end up with too many chiefs and not enough indians.

You sure it wasn't for E-8? As Skye pointed out, the promotion system at that grade is based mostly on tests, so she can't be getting "passed over" on the list. The only subjective part is the performance reports that are factored in to her total score, so if she's not getting good performance reports then her total score may not be high enough to make the list.

If I remember right, Air Force promotion rates are not job specific, so everyone competing with her for E-6 has the same chance. Each rank is allowed to be a certain percentage of the population, so how many people they promote is based off of how many they need to reach that percentage.
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Fivelives » Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:04 pm

This was a couple years ago, but I'm betting performance reviews had something to do with it.

Maybe the Marines get less money because they're the smallest military branch? I can't figure why the marine corps would have such a lower standard of living than the other branches. My cousin's at Coronado, and says it's fine there - maybe because it's an IET base? He hasn't been in long - only joined in '08.
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:32 pm

Fivelives wrote:This was a couple years ago, but I'm betting performance reviews had something to do with it.

Probably, they can be an issue at times. There's no really consistent standard for the scoring and the scoring is done by your supervisor, though it is signed off on up the chain of command. When I was in, the score range was 1-5. Generally, if you didn't mess up you got a five, but some supervisors were more literal with scoring and mostly gave out fours. If you get just a single 4, it can easily cost you a year or two towards a promotion. The real pain of it is, that since a 4 is technically a good score, you can't contest it like you can a 3 or lower. If you do actually get a 3, you risk not being afforded the opportunity to reenlist.

I had a friend who got a 4 from his supervisor, and the commanding officers wanted to upgrade it to a 5, but they couldn't because a 4 was not contestable. The only person who could change it was the commander, but that's a pretty large breach of etiquette and he was unwilling to do so (he actually had a decent reason, but that's a long story).

In any event, it would not surprise me if she was getting 4s when she probably should have been getting 5s.
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:01 pm

I've tested 3 times (made it this last time, currently an E-5 :)) and I was a few points off the last couple of years. My EPRs have been alternating 4s and 5s, and I can't say I disagree with the 4s. I've never been "involved" much, so the lack of tons of volunteer work tends to "hurt" me. Don't get me wrong, none of the supervisors had issues with my work, just that I wasn't out in the community feeding the homeless or whatever...

And the scores are technically job specific. Only because it would be difficult to compare one person's CDCs difficulty to anothers. There are a few exceptions (those that are exempt from CDCs and only do the PDG test, which that score is counted twice for the overall, and the people that test PDG only, compete against only the other people who were PDG only.) The % promoted per job is still the same, it just may be that one AFSC has a higher average score, so their overall score to beat might be 271.5, whereas another might be 256.4 or something.
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Hayz » Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:20 am

somebody posted this on another board, i thought you'd all appreciate it. IMHO I dont discriminate based on age, gender, race, orientation, religion, etc. My view is your life, your choices.
http://www.angelfire.com/ak2/intelligen ... ching.html
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Hearthvaderr » Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:40 am

Fivelives wrote:This was a couple years ago, but I'm betting performance reviews had something to do with it.

Maybe the Marines get less money because they're the smallest military branch? I can't figure why the marine corps would have such a lower standard of living than the other branches. My cousin's at Coronado, and says it's fine there - maybe because it's an IET base? He hasn't been in long - only joined in '08.


I have a feeling that the Marine Corps' recent financial woes are largely in part to the Osprey development, the VTO/L tilt-rotor airplane that had been in development for forever. Not only have they cost somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 pilots' lives, but they're $110 million each and the Marine Corps is getting 350 of them. Oops, hey that's about a entire year and a half's worth of our $26b budget right out the window.

Compounded with the fact that the Marine Corps' leadership is intentionally dragging their heels on junior enlisted barracks conditions. They feel, perhaps rightly, that having 4 Marines to a room helps to build comraderie among the troops and that moving their barracks in the direction that the rest of the military will weaken their fighting forces.

I was at Lejeune in 07, barracks were pretty decent there as well. Shortly before I got out we moved barracks' to a new building, 2 Marines to a room, our own head, and walk-in closets.
The barracks we had before that wasn't so great though. Very old building right in the center of the base, asbestos problems, electrical problems, plumbing problems and I remember several weeks during the last hot and humid summer that the A/C didn't work at all for neigh upon two months.

I worked in the General's offices, next to his aide's and chief of staff, we held some very odd hours at times and because of our job, the OIC signed off on us all to be allowed BAS despite our lack of marital status and living in the barracks.
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Brekkie » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:40 am

Also relevant is that the USMC isn't technically it's own branch with it's own funding. It is a subsection of the Department of the Navy. Thus, USMC funding has to be justified in front of DoN Admirals, who often feel like new capital ships or new and improved robotic destroyers (DDX, Littoral Combat Ship) are higher priority than building better barracks for a bunch of dumb grunts who spend half their time deployed anyway.
High Speed "cool" experimental tech like the Joint Strike Fighter often sounds a lot more attractive to policy makers than decidedly un-sexy concerns like "maintenance" funding and buying new boots, blankets, and backpacks. Even though replacing all the broken mundane stuff would have a much bigger overall impact on the total effectiveness of the force. I know of an Embassy Marine security guard detachment that still has kevlar helmets from the Korean war 60 years ago.

One of the problems a lot of my friends in the air wing tell me, which I've heard voiced by Air Force guys as well, is that a lot of our planes are crippled by huge replacement part costs. The reason being that the aircraft was designed so long ago that the particular airframe it is based on is no longer manufactured. So replacement parts have to be custom built, at great expense. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the aircraft themselves, they just have an old airframe they are built around.
The problem is that instead of simply transferring the general, working, design of the weapons platform over to a more modern airframe that is actually in production, money keeps instead being spent on reinventing the wheel by designing entirely new aircraft from the ground up, and then trying to phase them in as replacements only to run out of money and end up only buying a small number of the new ones. Again, the Joint Strike Fighter is a perfect example. You end up with situations like the USMC air wing, which STILL has the Harrier as it's primary jet aircraft (it was designed in the 1960s), breaks more than any other aircraft, and is hideously expensive to repair. It's a museum piece, perpetuated by inefficient spending priorities.


To get back on topic, I think another reason why the 4-person barracks room model has had so much inertia is because of the top brass's paranoia about suicides. The rationale is that if they make sure no junior Marine is ever alone and is constantly surrounded by their fellows, they are less likely to commit suicide, if only because of intervention rather than being less likely to want to in the first place. I'd hazard a guess that this is a big reason why single junior Marines are rarely given permission to live out in town as well.
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