Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.X)

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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.X)

Postby Tallman » Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:32 pm

I need a little help on adjusting my data. I need to determine which gear I should be using versus other gear. But I keep finding that parry/dodge are still better than mastery?

I used real values off my character tab for about 15 different combinations of armor/reforges. I did not seem to hit diminishing returns in parry/dodge. My 2 best sets of values were reforged completely differently.

Reforged into mastery:
11.75% dodge
13.25% parry
46.48% block
44.40% mitigation(wearing the eternal meta)
44.34% mitigation (wearing the austere)

Reforged into parry/dodge:
13.76% dodge
15.81% parry
35.98% block
44.63% mitigation(wearing the austere meta)
44.54% (wearing the eternal)

So 10.5% block versus 4.57% dodge/parry (1% parry/dodge = 2.297% block). I'm seeing better mitigation reforged into dodge/parry than into mastery.

Calculations
1000 attacks
15000 damage per attack

Austere meta was calculated to give 1.13% more physical damage reduction over the eternal meta; damage was factored down by 98.87% versus the eternal meta. Dodge,

totalPosDmg = 1000*15000 = 15,000,000
#parries = %parry * 1000
#dodges = %dodge * 1000
#blocks = %block * 1000
blockDmg = #blocks(100-%block)*15000
40% blocked damage for austere, 41% for eternal
#nonmitigated = 1000-#block - #parry - #dodge
totalDmg = (#nonmitigated*15000+blockDmg)*c
c is the armor coefficient
c = 1 for eternal
c = .9887 for austere
% mitigation = ( 1 - (totalDmg/ totalPosDmg) ) * 100%


other calculations I used that had the same answer as above.

1% dodge = 176.699 dodge rating (8.24/1456 = .00566 1/.00566 = 176.699)
1% parry = 176.699 parry rating (8.82/1559 = .00566 1/.00566 = 176.699)
1 mastery = 179.1992 mastery rating (10.24/1835 = .00558 1/.00558 = 179.1992)
1 mastery = 2.25% block chance

Calculating the eternal as providing 5% instead of 1% (via tool tip) or 1.5% (5% of 30% = 1.5%):

I determined the parry/dodge to block ratio by dropping 1% dodge or parry and finding the % block needed to regain the % mitigation lost.

1% parry/dodge = 2.25% block chance
179.1992 mastery rating = 176.699 dodge/parry rating

Mastery costs more per % mitigation than dodge/parry, until diminishing returns. Even at 15.81% parry, I have yet to hit diminishing values.

So my question again, if mastery is more expensive than dodge/parry and we are not at diminishing returns, should we be reforging into dodge/parry until we hit the dr level?

Foot note: the eternal as tool tip shows (1% more damage blocked) is 1% parry/dodge = 2.45% block chance.
If it is rounded down (5% of 30% = 1.5%), then 1% parry/dodge = 2.4% block chance.
Still, far from the 2.297% block to 1% parry/dodge from the first set.
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.X)

Postby Flex » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:29 pm

Tallman wrote:I did not seem to hit diminishing returns in parry/dodge.


I do not know what this means. Diminishing Returns are always active.
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.X)

Postby Incite. » Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:04 pm

The math here is way over my head. But, I really appreciate it and all and the time you have put into it!

reading through it I am able to grasp what I should be aiming for at least :)
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.X)

Postby Tallman » Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:09 pm

Flex wrote:
Tallman wrote:I did not seem to hit diminishing returns in parry/dodge.


I do not know what this means. Diminishing Returns are always active.


with the heroic gear i have, i did not reach a point where mastery rating > parry/dodge rating
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.X)

Postby sculder » Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:36 pm

Tallman wrote:with the heroic gear i have, i did not reach a point where mastery rating > parry/dodge rating


"diminishing returns" might not be what you're thinking of. Avoidance DR happens when you receive less avoidance percentage for one point of avoidance rating than you did for the previous point (the more rating you get, the less effective each point of rating is at giving you the relevant percentage). This is always a factor, though usually quite small.

Technically speaking, mastery is better than dodge above their "DR points" (a term that has different meaning in the context of this thread), which are around 10% @85. Before hitting those points you will take less theoretical damage with 1 point of mastery vs 1 point of dodge or parry, because the avoidance you lose is less than 0.4 times the block% you gain.

I'm not sure I fully understand what you're asking, but hopefully this will help clarify things (even for me...)
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.X)

Postby Tallman » Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:07 pm

sculder wrote:Technically speaking, mastery is better than dodge above their "DR points" (a term that has different meaning in the context of this thread), which are around 10% @85. Before hitting those points you will take less theoretical damage with 1 point of mastery vs 1 point of dodge or parry, because the avoidance you lose is less than 0.4 times the block% you gain.

I'm not sure I fully understand what you're asking, but hopefully this will help clarify things (even for me...)


when you talk of 10% at 85, do you mean the % parry/dodge gained from rating?

I'm not doubting anything, I was already reforged to mastery before I came here. I just want to make sure my maths are sound.

using the block cap macro, I am at 76.51. Not sure where there is more to gain pre-raid gear.
Last edited by Tallman on Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.X)

Postby sculder » Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:26 pm

Tallman wrote:when you talk of 10% at 85, do you mean the % parry/dodge gained from rating?


It's actually at 5.139% for parry, but it shows up as 10.139% on your character sheet (which factors in the base 5% parry)
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.X)

Postby theckhd » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:12 pm

Tallman wrote:other calculations I used that had the same answer as above.

1% dodge = 176.699 dodge rating (8.24/1456 = .00566 1/.00566 = 176.699)
1% parry = 176.699 parry rating (8.82/1559 = .00566 1/.00566 = 176.699)
1 mastery = 179.1992 mastery rating (10.24/1835 = .00558 1/.00558 = 179.1992)
1 mastery = 2.25% block chance

Tallman wrote:Mastery costs more per % mitigation than dodge/parry, until diminishing returns. Even at 15.81% parry, I have yet to hit diminishing values.

So my question again, if mastery is more expensive than dodge/parry and we are not at diminishing returns, should we be reforging into dodge/parry until we hit the dr level?.


Short Version: That's not what diminishing returns means.

Long Version: 176.699 dodge rating doesn't provide 1% dodge. The first point of dodge rating provides (1/176.99) percent dodge. Every additional point provides less than the previous one. Thus, you didn't hit diminishing returns because you didn't include diminishing returns in your calculation. What you calculated is the mitigation per point of rating if diminishing returns didn't exist, which is what you'd get if you only had base dodge/parry (i.e. around 5% of each). As soon as you have more than that, the ratios change. At around 9% dodge and 10% parry, mastery becomes better point for point.

Even Longer Version: I've already worked out analytic expressions for most of this over in the Armor, Mastery, and Avoidance thread. You might want to take a look at that derivation, it should help fill in the gaps in your calculations.
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.X)

Postby Redneckizm » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:04 am

I was reluctant to do it also, had a hard time stomaching the low Dodge/Parry %'s I had a month ago. Still fighting off the Wrath habits of Dodge/Parry #'s. After spending waaay too much on Reforging/Gems and finally trusting Theck's advice, I'm much happier sacrificing Dodge/Parry off gear & Stam (Gems) for Mastery.
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.X)

Postby bubbleøseven » Tue Dec 28, 2010 3:40 pm

Hi!

Couple of questions:

1) What is the exact amount Mastery Rating do we need?

I'm seeing all sorts of values and percentages but has anyone figured out a stone-cold number for Mastery Rating (completely unbuffed)? I have 1749 Mastery Rating at the moment (completely unbuffed) which translates to 17.16 Mastery and 39% chance to block melee attacks) and I was wondering when I should start reforging for Dodge/Parry?

2) Why does Dodge and Parry have to be similar in percentages?

I understand that it has to do with DR (and I understand what DR is) but I do not understand why these two probabilities are dependent of each other. I would have thought that their chance to dodge or parry would be independent. The only thing i can think of is that, if you don't dodge it then a parry is the second line of defense. But if this is the case, then why is Mitigation (Block) not dependent on Avoidance (Dodge/Parry).

3) Just for future reference, what is the cap for Dodge and Parry? Then which defensive stat (negligent of threat concerns) should we keep stacking?

I realize we may not get gear to enable us to do this anytime soon. I thought I might just ask for piece of mind.

4) Did they ever fix the 5% Block Value on the Meta Gem? Has anyone figured out what this actually translates to and if its better than 2% armor?

This last part is just my experience with Hit/Exp for threat. I haven't once had issues with threat in Cata but I have always been Exp capped while my Hit has been as low as 2% and high as 5.5%. Hope this helps!

Thanks and sorry for all the questions!

Bubble :D
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.X)

Postby Greengo » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:44 am

Smoothing out the damage taken via mastery/block is much more important than xxx less dmg per sec. Ask your healers.
I like avoidance, but I love smooth dmg without huge spikes.

So below block cap: mastery > parry/dodge. End of story.
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.X)

Postby theothersteve7 » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:36 am

1) What is the exact amount Mastery Rating do we need?

You won't hit the maximum any time soon. Given full 359 gear, each piece with mastery on it, double mastery trinkets, and full mastery gems, and you'll probably get close. You can check your avoidance and block on your character pane; you need around 97% dodge + block + parry (you get around 5% miss).

2) Why does Dodge and Parry have to be similar in percentages?

The more dodge you have, the less dodge % 10 Dodge Rating gives you. At 30% dodge and 0% parry, a small chunk of parry rating gives the same avoidance as a large amount of dodge rating. The difference isn't severe unless your gear is especially lopsided.

3) Just for future reference, what is the cap for Dodge and Parry? Then which defensive stat (negligent of threat concerns) should we keep stacking?

There's no cap there. Treat them as equal no matter the values.

4) Did they ever fix the 5% Block Value on the Meta Gem? Has anyone figured out what this actually translates to and if its better than 2% armor?

Yes, it's now 1% block, meaning you block 41% damage with Holy Shield up. It's better than the armor one once you hit 55% block or so. Around those values they are pretty close, so don't bother changing until you get a new helm.

This last part is just my experience with Hit/Exp for threat. I haven't once had issues with threat in Cata but I have always been Exp capped while my Hit has been as low as 2% and high as 5.5%. Hope this helps!

Expertise is better threat than hit, in fact. You shouldn't really need either to hold threat.
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.X)

Postby theckhd » Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:48 am

theothersteve7 wrote:3) Just for future reference, what is the cap for Dodge and Parry? Then which defensive stat (negligent of threat concerns) should we keep stacking?

There's no cap there. Treat them as equal no matter the values.


Just to clarify, there is a cap on Dodge and Parry. It's 65.6% for each. But since it would take an infinite amount of either rating to reach it, it's not particularly relevant. In either case, mastery is a stronger stat at any level of parry or dodge, so until we start reaching block cap, you shouldn't stack dodge or parry.
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.X)

Postby theothersteve7 » Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:13 am

Haha, yeah, I hadn't thought of it from that angle. I suppose that'll be relevant when we need to be avoidance-capped against bosses 52 levels above us in ilevel infinity gear. :lol:
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