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Prot PVP @ 85

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:36 pm

Not much discussion about prot PVP at 85...

So figured I would start a thread on it, as it's likely the route I am going to go...

My questions:
1. Spec key points ?
2. Gear key points? (What stat focus)
3. Role key points (wait for low target to burst and finish? maximize shield toss procs? any tips?)


I know some people have had success, and I will say I can actually kill a warrior as prot, where as with Ret I simply died before stun wore off.. so that's progress >.> Anyone have input on prot for PVP?
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Shoju » Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:47 pm

I can't tell you much about organized BG/Arena PvP, but I have some anecdotal 1v1 evidence.

My 1v1 experience: If it is 1v1 against another player, and they aren't a beast at pvp, you will kill them.

Last night, I was doing the Dragonmaw dailies, and didn't realize that there was an alliance town in the thundermar ruins. I land. Instantly get flagged, fly off, and start doing the dailies.

First came a hunter. I was mowing down packs of thundermar dwarves. She sent in the pet, and starting lighting me up. I switched to Seal of insight, Cycled through my cooldowns, finished off the pack, and the beat her mercilessly. I stunned her, I snared her, I killed her pet, and I ran her down. She even drug me through more packs of dwarves. I didn't even care. they kept my mana up while I killed her.

Then came a warrior. He was trying to catch me mid fight with high shaman mcgillicutty or whatever his name is. Same thing, swapped seals, moved to WoG Spam, killed shaman, then killed him. He was pretty bad. he didn't try to kite me, he tried to stand toe to toe with me.

Then came a shaman. She hexed me, I bubbled, and kept SoV running and just dropped her. When She was close to dying, she GW'd. I Shielded her, HoW'd, and she died on the run.

Then the shaman and the warrior came back. Shaman healed warrior, I killed shaman, warrior finished me off.

Then there was the mage. Who was a PvP (or CC) PRO. I got him to ~30% before he finished me up. I'm sure had he been something besides arcane, I would have died a LOT faster.

Moral of the story:
If they don't outgear you, they will be ill advised to try and stand toe to toe with you.
If they don't plan out good CC, they will not kill you.


The warrior really surprised me. I would have figured that he could take me toe to toe. He was ~115k HP, looked to be in dungeon + rep gear, and he just couldn't beat the heals.

The hunter was also surprising, because even trying to kite me, and snare me, she just couldn't. Sicking her pet on me might have actually been a mistake, because I beat on the pet, and shot her with AS's that procced.

Warlocks scare me. But then... they have scared me since TBC. Other Prot Paladins are going to be stupidly long fights. DK's might be a problem, depending on how often you purify. Druids are probably really tough.

That is all the anecdotal evidence I have. It felt good to be borderline unkillable 1v1:)
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Worldie » Sun Dec 26, 2010 2:06 pm

I can say, don't bother trying to kill other Prot Paladins or healers, you are up for LONG fights, and i mean retardedly long.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Sleetza » Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:21 am

Great thread. There is indeed almost nothing to find about it, PvPing prot paladins are a rare breed. However, the ones who do PvP as prot are mostly people who know what they are doing. Paladin Protection PvP 85 does give some nice hits on YouTube :)

I have some experience with prot PvP in 2s, 3s and BGs. Currently I got myself the epic PvP shield and 3piece blue PvPgear (working on it, but PvE soaks up a lot of my time too).

What I usually do is sustain low damage, wait for my cooldowns (AS, Stun etc) and 3 holy power and combine all of those.

General tips:

Use Divine Protection alot. Its on 1min cooldown for a reason. Also be sure to use GoAK etc. when your opponent uses his damage cooldowns (a mage popping 3 clones of himself should ring a bell).
When there's a pet/mob on you, use them to generate holy power when your opponent is out of melee range.
When facing opponents who can not heal you should be able to outlast them with WoG on every 3 holy power.
When facing opponents who can heal you should be able to bust them with several cooldowns combined (AS, Wings, Stun, DP etc.)
When you know youre going to use e.g. AS/judgement/HoW/HW there is no need to be in meleerange when facing a melee opponent.
Try to avoid healers/prot opponents 1vs1 as this will take rediculous amounts of time.

I got some questions too, maybe other prot PvPers can help out here.

What heals do you use when bubbled/LoS etc.? I found our heals to pretty much suck except WoG. They either OOM us or just dont heal alot.
How do you guys handle frostmages? :evil: They got all benefits of kiters but dont got the pet to abuse. I probably suck most against skilled mages.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby yazhou87 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:57 pm

Personally, I LOVE PvPing as a Prot Pally, and I don't care what those trolls at junkies say. I'm not a good healer (haven't had much experience healing); I would NEVER go Ret. I started PvPing as Prot last season and loved it. There are some advantages to Prot Pally PvP at level 85:

1. High survivability: Being tanks, we have a large number of defensive CDs. Between Diving Protection, GotAK, Ardent Defender, Divine Shield/LoH, and the self healing of WoG, it takes a LOT of damage to kill us.

2. Decent damage output: In full PvP gear, glyphed AS and SotR hit pretty damn hard, especially with high crit and/or Sacred Duty proc. If we are getting focused, we hit even harder thanks to Vengeance, provided it's not purged off, and that we can survive long enough for it to build up.

3. Interrupt/silence: Grand Crusader is my favorite talent when it comes to PvP. Even though the silence goes on DR pretty fast, the ability can still be used as an interrupt against casters. It's turned the tide for me in plenty of duels and BGs.

4. Good group utility: With BoP, Freedom, Hand of Sac, Divine Guardian, Cleanse, and some off healing (though unreliable), we can do a lot of good for our teammates in arenas and BGs.

However, as much as I love the spec, there are some serious disadvantages that severely limit its viability in arenas.

1. RNG-dependent: As Prot we have 3 procs to keep an eye on. Sacred Duty, when procced, really boosts our damage (unless you need the HP to heal). Eternal Glory has saved my ass time and time again in tight spots. And of course, Grand Crusader resets the CD on one of our hardest hitting and most annoying abilities (annoying to the enemy). However, when these abilities don't proc, we don't really have much else going on. If the RNG god doesn't favor you very often, it can get frustrating pretty fast as a Prot PvPer.

2. Limited CC/interrupt: As Prot, our only source of CC, HoJ, is rather pathetic compared to the myriad of incapacitating abilities the other classes possess. While it does not break on damage, its CD isn't exactly short. The other interrupt we have is too RNG-dependent to be reliable. We might get some good procs and interrupt a few casts, but chances are it won't be up for the big heal or nuke that is the most dangerous.

3. Limited cleansing abilities: In 4.0.1 Blizz took away our ability to cleanse magic, which means that, for most forms of CC and snares, we are SoL. Not to mention, Cleanse costs a ton of mana and is not something we can keep up for long periods of time.

4. Severely limited mobility: This, IMO, is the worst thing about the spec. Compared to other melees, we have possibly the worst mobility. Rets have Long Arm of the Law and can cleanse most snare effects. DKs can Death Grip and snare people without trying. Feral Druids and Rogues can dash and sprint (plus other stuff). Warriors have such amazing mobility, with Charge, Intercept, Intervene, and now Heroic Leap. Prot Pallies, on the other hand, have one Hand of Freedom. As soon as that is popped, it is either immediately spell stolen, or we are CC'ed through the whole duration. Best case scenario, we get full use of Freedom, whack our opponent a few times. When it falls off, we are back to crawling at snail pace while our opponent kites us until we are dead.

That being said, I think Prot Pallies are going to be solid in rated BGs, carrying flags and anchoring nodes. As long as we have people to cleanse CCs and snares and heal us as we build vengeance, we can carry the flag home with ease while dealing some heavy damage along the way. In BGs like AB, unless we are seriously outnumbered, we can usually survive long enough with CDs until the reinforcement arrives, or until we snatch another base. That is what I plan to do in guild rated BGs: stack resilience with full PvP gear, put on some dps gems and enchants, and go to town with a flag on my back or alone at a node. It may not be the funnest job, but it is a necessary job that we are perfectly suited for.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby yazhou87 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:10 pm

Sleetza wrote:What heals do you use when bubbled/LoS etc.? I found our heals to pretty much suck except WoG. They either OOM us or just dont heal alot.
How do you guys handle frostmages? :evil: They got all benefits of kiters but dont got the pet to abuse. I probably suck most against skilled mages.


Unless I have healers around or I need to bubble off some nasty debuffs, I personally prefer to use LoH on myself instead of bubble. I find that my mana pool cannot afford to heal myself to a respectable amount. So instead of bubbling, healing my self to 30%, going OOM, then running around like an idiot because I have no mana to do anything, I'd rather LoH or die faster, so I can rez at full health faster and get back into the fight.

Of course, you can't use LoH in arenas. When I have to bubble/heal in arenas, what heal I use depends on what classes I'm facing. If I'm facing someone who can break my bubble (priest, warrior), I'll use FL to get some quick heals off. Otherwise, I'll use Divine Light to get as much health as possible before the bubble falls off.

As for frost mages, I avoid them if I can. Frost mages are possibly the best kiters in the game. Given our mobility, there's really not much we can do.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Tebin » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:17 pm

Tried pvping rogue, got killed hard. They regen health a lot faster than I can kill them. Ideas?
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Sleetza » Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:35 pm

Tebin wrote:Tried pvping rogue, got killed hard. They regen health a lot faster than I can kill them. Ideas?


You shouldn't have any problems with rogues unless they outgear you. Use your holy power to WoG yourself when you got 3 of it and you'll outlast them easily. Be sure to pop some mitigation CD.

@ Yaz, I found our mobility to be not that worse at all with Pursuit of Justice, Seal of Justice when needed and some ranged attacks.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby yazhou87 » Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:24 am

Sleetza wrote:
Tebin wrote:Tried pvping rogue, got killed hard. They regen health a lot faster than I can kill them. Ideas?


@ Yaz, I found our mobility to be not that worse at all with Pursuit of Justice, Seal of Justice when needed and some ranged attacks.


Pursuit of Justice helps, a lot. Seal of Justice is also nice against melee. But when you face a caster than can reliably slow you, you have no chance, as long as they are not so idiotic that they stand still and cast. Frost mages are the worst. They can spell steal my Freedom as soon as I cast it, and keep me Chilled, in Nova, or in Ring of Frost for the entire fight, while I have no way of getting out of it except with bubble. You can Judge and AS all you want, but you have no way of even building Holy Power to heal yourself without being in melee range, (except with a DP every minute).
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:30 pm

Tebin wrote:Tried pvping rogue, got killed hard. They regen health a lot faster than I can kill them. Ideas?


As the others said, generally you're good against a rogue unless they out gear you or *seriously* know their stuff

You should be able to outlast them, especially if you have the PVP trinket to break a stun, and use a CD otherwise (I believe AD works while stunned)


Just remember to use your damage reducing cd's on them, as block means nothing when they are trying to stun lock you or get behind.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Darkler » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:57 am

Im still interested in the part of
'what gems is best'
'what enchants should I have'
and
'what stat to focus on (and reforge to)'
if someone have some answers.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Sleetza » Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:34 pm

Personally i go for hit/expertise cap, then strength. Crit is nice too.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby econ21 » Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:42 am

Sleetza wrote:Personally i go for hit/expertise cap, then strength. Crit is nice too.


That's my approach too. The argument is that we have enough survivability already and so should enhance our gear for damage. Gem for strength; reforge/select gear for caps then crit. However, stamina and resilience are not bad stats, so I am working towards a full set of ret PvP gear. The ret PvP strength bonuses make it decent for (ret) PvE too.

For trinkets, I picked up the PvP one with resilience plus a chance for strength; and am using an armour one with a +10k max health on use. (My character is human so I did not need the insignia of the alliance.)
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Bladesong » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:26 pm

I reforged Haste and Mastery to reach my Hit and Exp targets and then went for Crit. I'm assuming that without Sanctity of Battle and a big two hander, that Haste is low value and that there's too much jumping around and magic damage for Mastery to be worth keeping at full strength.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Sleetza » Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:14 am

Bladesong wrote:I reforged Haste and Mastery to reach my Hit and Exp targets and then went for Crit. I'm assuming that without Sanctity of Battle and a big two hander, that Haste is low value and that there's too much jumping around and magic damage for Mastery to be worth keeping at full strength.


Yeah thats very true. Apart from our white damage nothing does benefit from haste except our heals with casttime which are mediocre. Kinda sucks that the only pvpcloaks with strength either come with haste or mastery... Went for the haste and reforged to crit.

Oh and... REBUKE BECOMES BASELINE BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!! :mrgreen:
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