Logical Progression Path?

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Logical Progression Path?

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:11 am

My guild is going to begin raiding the weekend after New Year's and I was wondering what the progression path is like at the moment. I know a lot of people are already deep into raids, so I was wondering what seemed like the best place to start with (aka, easiest) and where to end.

Thanks!
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby inthedrops » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:19 am

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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:23 am

That thread is a mess. It starts off with "how far we got a boss down" to "what gear should we be wearing" to "I think we can do this". And then goes off into what gems and enchants everyone in the raid should be wearing.

There's like one person in there that offered a full list of bosses, but I'd prefer to know by raid instance as opposed to going around and killing random bosses from different zones.
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby inthedrops » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:35 am

Ok, I'll see if I can help by showing our progression path in 25, we're only 9/12 in 25 though, and killed a couple of the remaining bosses in 10 over the holiday weekend. This is the order of our kills, but the first 5 listed are probably interchangeable a bit.

1. Omnotron Defense System
2. Halfus Wyrmbreaker
3. Valiona and Theralion
4. Conclave of Wind
5. Magmaw
6. Maloriak
7. Atramedes
8. Ascendant Council
9. Chimaeron
10. Cho'Gal (not dead on 25)
11. Al'Akir (not dead on 25)
12. Nef (not dead on 25)

I just recently experienced some 10 man encounters that I've killed on 25 and based on my experience there are probably some fights that are easier to manage on 10 and could be done earlier, such as Conclave of Wind.

Also keep in mind that the trash in twilight can be annoyingly slow (on 25 man). So it would be a good idea to start there and work on Halfus rather than trying to spend your last hour there. It might take you an hour to clear trash the first time, possibly more depending on how quick you learn.
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby Senador » Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:40 am

For progression sakes, and where to start, I would definitely start with Blackwing Descent.

Halfus’ difficulty is largely dependent on his drake make up, in that if the Storm Rider is not present, it makes the fight substantially easier to lean. Also, depending on how much time you have to raid, Bastion of Twilight has a substantially larger amount of trash than Blackwing Descent, so if you go there first expect a decent amount of time spent on trash, while in Blackwing you can almost dive right into the bosses (Magmaw has two trash pulls, while Omnitron only has one, compared to Halfus’ 8 packs, and the twin dragons gauntlet event and two packs beyond that). However, the trash can drop some nice epics so its up to you.

I would start with Omnitron as it’s a pretty simple fight, has no discernable enrage timer and the entire fight is about balancing two sets of abilities at any given time. Wipes also give you time to see each of the various ‘trons as the order is random each time you pull.

Magmaw isn’t a bad second option since you are already there. The fight isn’t hard if your DPS is decent about handling Parasites and you are quick about spiking the boss. After that, it becomes pretty simple even with only one tank. Yes, you end up tanking most of the fight with a 50% armor debuff, but you only tank the boss in 45 second segments due to the Mangle/Head Spike phase.

This then opens you up to five bosses you can do, the other three in Blackwing Descent, Conclave of Winds and Halfus. At this point, I would probably say go knock out Halfus, Valiona and Theralion and Conclave, probably in that order, then pick your poison between cleaning up Blackwing Descent or Ascendants.

I only push Conclave so far down for three reasons. One, its in the middle of nowhere compared to the other raid bosses being in Throne of the Four Winds in Uldum. Second the drops are completely random "Of the XXX" epics making it a bit more luck based than the normal raid drops, and making it extremely hard to predict gear upgrade paths. Third, the only other boss in there, Al'akir is so much harder than Conclave is, that you will be leaving after only that boss anyways until you are essentially done everything but Cho'gall and Nefarion.
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:44 am

That is EXACTLY what I was looking for. Thank you for that breakdown and explanation. Your point about Throne of the Four Winds being so far away from everything else was something else I was having an issue with resolving and didn't want to spend raid time going "okay now fly out to point a for one boss, then point b for another boss, etc."

Thanks so much!
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby Belloc » Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:58 am

Make sure to start with Baradin Hold first, just to get a feel for if you are ready to raid.

After that, I agree with the above post. Omnotron --> Magmaw --> Halfus --> Valiona/Theralion --> Maloriak. Insert Conclave of Wind anywhere in here, as it is no more difficult than any of them, just out of the way. Magmaw will seem difficult until you learn how to manage the adds.

At this point, every fight has a different element that will challenge you... if your healers are skilled and intelligent, Chimaeron is a good fight (and a terrible fight if they're not). Atramedes is a large raid awareness check -- avoiding/minimizing time spent getting hit by boss abilities and managing the sound resource (people need to announce if they are getting too high, or else they will die) and kiting an increasingly fast fire beam in the air phase.

The Ascendant Council has a learning curve and a decently high DPS check in the final phase. This is a good non-end boss fight to save for last.

For end bosses, Cho'gall is easier than Al'akir, which is easier than Nefarian. When you get around to Nefarian, you have to have 3 reliable interrupters (the ability that needs to be interrupted is on a 10-12 second cooldown) who are exceptional at jumping out of "water' onto a platform. A failed jump equals a wipe.
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby Strendarr » Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:06 pm

Thanks for this. Like Nikachelle was saying, that other thread is a mess.
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby Sagedin » Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:52 pm

Don't avoid Conclave of Wind just because it is out of the way. Unless you are raiding without a mage it is faster to get there (mage portal to Alliance variant of Orgrimar -> portal to Uldum -> 2 minute flight) than clearing trash to another boss. Only issue is if you want to do Blackwing Decent after as it is a slightly longer trip (mage portal to capital city -> portal to Twilight Highlands (or mole)-> fly to Black Rock), but still these are travel times sub 5 minutes if your raid is able to use portals.

Only have limited experience, but from the raid bosses that we have done on 10 man:

1. Omnitron
2. Magmaw
3. Conclave
4. Halfus
5. Valiona and Theralion

Very limited experience, but 1 through 3 are by far easier than 5 and Halfus really depends on the drake set-up.
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby Strendarr » Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:29 am

I'd put it as:

1.)Magmaw
2.)Valiona & Theralion
3.)Omnitron
4.)Atramedes
5.)Halfus
6.)Conclave of Wind
7.)Maloriak
8.)Chimaeron
9.)Ascendant Council*
10.)Cho'Gall*
11.)Al'Akir
12.)Nefarion*

*Bosses which my guild hasn't killed or attempted yet, a guess at their placement.

That list is in terms of difficulty. In terms of actual raid order I'd suggest; Magmaw, Omnitron, Atramedes, Halfus, Valiona & Theralion, Conclave, Maloriak, Chimaeron, Ascendant Council, Cho'Gall, Al'Akir, Nefarion.
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby Xfighter » Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:18 pm

Edit: For 10-man.

The order really depends on your raids pre-raid gear levels, and what your raiders are better at fight-mechanic wise.

As others stated, Baradin Hold should be knocked off first, as it's a good DPS/heals indicator, and is the easiest to do.

After that, the difficulty level, and relative order of progression would be;
-Magmaw, Omnotron, Conclave (1)
-Halfus [1 tank, 1 raid type drake], Valiona (2)
-Maloriak, Halfus [2 tank or 2 raid type drakes] (3)
-Atramedes (2-4, depending on raid)
-Chimerion (3-5, depending on raid)
-Twilight Council (5-6)

Then from what I gather;
-Cho'gall / Al'Akir
-Nefarian


A breakdown of the above;
(1) - All of these are rather simple execution checks, and once the general mechanics are learned by your raid, they are easily downable. Each of these took my guild roughly 2-5 attempts each to learn & get down. A downside is a couple of mistakes can easily add up to make the fight seem more difficult than they really are.

(2) - Halfus, as others have said, is entirely dependant on which drakes he has active. If it's a tank debuff dragon, and a raid debuff dragon, it's rather simple. The shadownova dragon increases the difficulty immensely, and can lead to a higher learning curve. If you roll with a warlock, at the start of the week he can zone in and eye of kil'rogg to see which drakes are active, for if you want to do him early on or wait till later. Of course, Valiona comes after halfus, thus is marked as on par with him for that reason. In terms of fight difficulty though, Valiona is extremely easy in comparisson to any combo that halfus can have, and could be marked down on the same level as (1)

(3) - Maloriak is hard due to it being an all around raid check. If you tank the adds, it's a check to see how well your healers and tanks are, and also how you manage interupts. I don't have experience with the kiting adds strat, but that method then comes down to kiting ability, and raid awareness/interupts. It is also a rather tight DPS check, in the sense that if your DPS slack/perform sub-par, chances are you'll wipe due to the enrage a decent amoutn of times. May take optimization of individual DPS players to down the first time. Halfus is again a raid gear check, with 2 similar drakes active (2 tank-debuff ones, or 2 raid-debuff ones), as they are DPS races, along with healer checks, and also to a similar degree, a tank gear check in terms of 2 tank dragons, or a healer check if it's two raid drakes.

(2-4) - Depends on your raids ability to communicate and avoid stuff, really. "Marathon of dodging stuff" describes the fight.

(3-5) - Depends heavily on the strat used. If using a tank for debuffs + melee swings, and a tank for double strikes, it's down to tank awareness, and a lesser extent healing. If doing the 2 debuff, and soaking double attacks, it's a more heavy healer fight. Either strat will test raid healing immensely.

(5) - Council is a hard fight, for everyone. It contains numerous styles of mechanics, and thus is down to execution on everyone's part. The healing is rather intense, due to phase 3, but p1 & p2 are cake walks. Tanks don't really have too much to worry about throughout the fight. The DPS check for phase 3 on 10-man is rather steep, and is by far the most bi-polar fight of the non end-instance bosses. (First 2 phases = easy, last phases difficulty is really quite hard.)
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby heuvarius » Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:40 pm

For 10 mans Cho'Gall is a lot tougher than Al'Akir. We went from not knowing the fight to killing Al'Akir in less than two hours.

25s will probably work differently, more interrupts makes Cho'gall easier, whilst more people/less room make Al'Akir harder.
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby Belloc » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:24 pm

heuvarius wrote:For 10 mans Cho'Gall is a lot tougher than Al'Akir. We went from not knowing the fight to killing Al'Akir in less than two hours.

25s will probably work differently, more interrupts makes Cho'gall easier, whilst more people/less room make Al'Akir harder.

You can use fears as interrupts on Cho'Gall. If you have a timer, a simple AOE fear automatically cancels the cast.

Personally, I thought Al'akir was harder than Cho'Gall.
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby Chasey » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:54 am

Nikachelle wrote:That is EXACTLY what I was looking for. Thank you for that breakdown and explanation. Your point about Throne of the Four Winds being so far away from everything else was something else I was having an issue with resolving and didn't want to spend raid time going "okay now fly out to point a for one boss, then point b for another boss, etc."

Thanks so much!



Couldn't have said it better myself. Love the sig too btw.

I've been looking around for this kind of info too.
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby Fetzie » Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:45 pm

Do conclave at the beginning of the raid (so you don't waste raid time by hiking down there. Then you can use a portal to Stonard or twilight highlands depending on which other raid you want to do.

My easiest to hardest list

Easy:
BWD: Magmaw, Omnotron
BoT: Halfus (easy drakes), V&T
ToW: Conclave

Middle:
BWD: Maloriak, Atramedes, Chimaeron
BoT: Halfus (hard drakes), Ascendants (dps gate boss, either you burn him down in time or you don't)

Hard:
BWD: Nef
BoT: Chogall
CoW: Al'akir

If Halfus has frenzy, shadow nova and mortal strike for your first lockout, go to blackwing descent, you will find maloriak easier.

The easy bosses have no berserk timer (except halfus), so you can drag the fight out as long as you want (although your healers will hate you after a 12 minute omnotron fight). From there on in, you will be wanting your 5 dps (assuming you 2 tank/3 heal to places which is to be recommended) to be pulling 12-16k dps each to beat the berserks/soft enrages.
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