Chimaeron

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Re: Chimaeron

Postby Kerriodos » Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:02 am

Treck wrote:Break does NOT reduce Healing taken, but healing DONE.

Meaning WoG healing is worse than normal, but also DKs will suffer from this debuff with their heal/shield, as will Druids with their selfheal (iirc) and Warriors with enraged regeneration. But healers will have no problem getting you up again.
As others have said you will want CDs for 2xBreak or more to survive the 2x attacks.
Taunting back and forth between 2 tanks is prolly stressfull for the healers, topping both tanks at the same time after a massacre, but on the other hand since that tank wont be having any stacks he should be fine by just getting topped off.
But tanks do have CDs to use, and on this fight its not about using a CD to ease it for the healers, its about dying or not.


This is what happens when I let healers read tooltips. However this makes the strategy even easier; the main tank only ever need be above 10k health. The offtank, who eats the Double Attack, is the only one who needs to be topped off so long as the Bile-o-Tron buff is up. He has no stacks of Break so can contribute to his own healing, and does not need to use cooldowns which are better used in the second phase anyways to survive. It honestly seems to me this is less stressful for both healers and tanks, since if someone is going to die you know exactly who it's going to be and the main tank can blow cooldowns to handle it until the off tank can be rezzed.
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Re: Chimaeron

Postby Belloc » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:03 pm

By the way, make sure your healers add the "Low Health" debuff to grid, if they use it. This is an actual debuff that is placed on players below 10k health. If you see that debuff, the next hit will kill them.
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Re: Chimaeron

Postby sculder » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:18 pm

inthedrops wrote:
sculder wrote:I've found the two tank strategy to work the best, because of an eventual lack of cooldowns to deal with the double strike. Everything went much more smoothly, and it freed up my WOGs to hit people who were sub 10% before they died :)


Which strategy was that? They both use two tanks.


derp.


I tanked him with 4 stacks, and the OT taunted on every double strike. Worked out quite nicely. It's a good idea to keep the OT topped off so that whenever he taunts there is no immediate danger of him dying, even if he takes the two strikes without a heal.

Also, if you have poor timing you could end up like we did, where the whole raid was sub 10% as we got the healing debuff. Made for an interesting 20% burn phase, with both tanks instagibbed and mages/rogues kiting him around the room.

Another thing worth noting is that the mechanics of the fight give you ten seconds to heal someone after they are hit by caustic slime- they cannot be hit by caustic slime (which would kill them) again within ten seconds. The exception to this is massacre, which can kill them within ten seconds. Simply put, the Caustic slime will not hit the same person within ten seconds.
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Re: Chimaeron

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:08 pm

Belloc wrote:It's been said, but I'll say it as well: one tank takes breaks and melee swings, another tank taunts for double attacks.

The normal tank never needs to be healed above 10k outside of feuds. Heal the double-attack tank instead.

2Cute2BeStr8 wrote:5. One healer should be able to handle caustics if your dps are handling it right.. stack up..

Are you suggesting that the raid stack up outside of feuds? If so, realize that caustic's apply a hit debuff. Stacking up will make the fight take twice as long. You were right that this fight is on healers and tanks, but, outside of feuds, the goal is to keep everyone (except the double attack tank) just above 10k. I can't imagine that staying stacked up the whole fight would provide any positive benefit that out-weighs the negatives of prolonging the fight. Also, even stacking up will inevitably result in your raid reaching such a low health as to require immediate heals (or draining your healers' mana to keep pumping the raid back up).

So, if you are suggesting that the raid stack up outside of feuds... I suggest that they don't. It costs a lot less mana to put a single heal into the two caustic targets (putting them above 10k health) than it does to keep healing the entire raid. And there's the fact that everyone is missing most of their attacks for most of the fight if they're stacked up.

Let me know if I'm missing something.



No you're correct...sry and ty I didn't word that well. I meant one healer can handle the caustics when feud isn't going on. When feud is going on stack up. When it isn't spread out. Sry.
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Re: Chimaeron

Postby gomashon » Sun Dec 26, 2010 5:37 am

sculder wrote:
inthedrops wrote:
sculder wrote:Another thing worth noting is that the mechanics of the fight give you ten seconds to heal someone after they are hit by caustic slime- they cannot be hit by caustic slime (which would kill them) again within ten seconds. The exception to this is massacre, which can kill them within ten seconds. Simply put, the Caustic slime will not hit the same person within ten seconds.


Its 5 seconds. assign healers efficiently.
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Re: Chimaeron

Postby pfunkmort » Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:00 pm

I don't know if it's been said, but I didn't see it and it's worth mentioning. Chimaeron doesn't seem to exhibit any form of taunt dr, at least from our kills on him. This makes it even POSSIBLE to have a soak tank for double attacks (which it is).
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Re: Chimaeron

Postby baleogthefierce » Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:36 am

A Death Knight MT is ridiculously good for this fight as they do not need external healing whatsoever except during Feud. I found that tanking the double strikes as a Paladin made it very simple to manage the troublesome double strike/massacre combos thanks to lots of cooldowns and LoH.

It may have been a ridiculous coincidence, but we could reliably predict when the Bile-O-Tron would get knocked offline during our 10-man attempts last night. After crossing the 80/60/40% thresholds of Chimaeron's health, the robot always went offline on the next Massacre. I'm wondering if anyone else can confirm/deny this behavior?
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Re: Chimaeron

Postby inthedrops » Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:02 am

baleogthefierce wrote:It may have been a ridiculous coincidence, but we could reliably predict when the Bile-O-Tron would get knocked offline during our 10-man attempts last night. After crossing the 80/60/40% thresholds of Chimaeron's health, the robot always went offline on the next Massacre. I'm wondering if anyone else can confirm/deny this behavior?


You could be on to something. I just reviewed our second kill video and the behavior confirmed this. I will also note that we brought him below one of those thresholds AFTER he cast massacre and if you're correct, he chooses to do Feud when he first casts massacre instead of at the end of massacre.

This also explains the randomness in previous attempts. As we were just ALMOST getting him to those thresholds a few times in the video I took and probably the times he Feud "early" was due to our DPS being 1 to 2% better those attempts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFe0LohXDrE
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Re: Chimaeron

Postby Thark » Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:22 pm

Out of curiosity, are the healers in any other guilds calling this fight impossible?

Mine have decided that this fight simply can't be done without a mod doing it for them, and thus we've had several people attempt to write a mod which places a raid marker on any target of Caustic Slime, and assigning healers to marks. But... I also learned that even then... some of them do not even have a UI that displays raid marks.

Strategy wise I think everything is the same. We're 2 tanking, and not having tank deaths. DPS is spread out correctly, and generally only 5 people (25) get the Caustic Slime. We're collapsing for Feud. The problem is that we lose about 2-3 people to Caustic Slime before the first Feud, then a few more during Feud because of people being dead, and it just spirals into wipes around 60-70%.

I don't understand why they can't simply look for the "Low Health" debuff on whatever UI setup they have, and heal those people in time. Running 7-8 healers, I don't feel that we should still have issues with 5 targets getting 5 heals within 5 seconds. Anyone with a healer perspective that can chime in? I've suggested that they need to sort their raid frames some way besides group, and assign healers to heal. For example, sort frames alphabetically, and assign healer 1 to heal the first target, healer 2 to heal the 2nd one alphabetically, etc.

Instead, I have people trying to write mods, make complicated UI changes, and basically argue with me that this fight is 100% impossible and luck based - which I emphatically disagree with. I can't help but feel that somewhere along the way we're making this fight much much harder than it's supposed to be, and doing it wrong. Any comments or tips from somewhat of a healer perspective would be helpful.
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Re: Chimaeron

Postby inthedrops » Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:28 pm

I haven't healed it, but healing assignments are very specific. Heal your own damn assignments and don't help anyone else. If after focusing on YOUR target people are still dying, then start working it out from there.

10k health. That's it except for tanks. In grid you can even just turn on the health number, look for anything less than 5 digits long, toss a heal at them (if they're someone you're supposed to heal). Done!

It's not more complicated than that.

This makes it sound like they don't understand the mechanics of the fight. For example, coming out of Feud he'll always to a Massacre, so don't try topping anyone off as it's a complete waste of mana.
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Re: Chimaeron

Postby Thark » Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:05 pm

Thanks for the quick response - one question though: Do you know what your healers' assignments are?

I did hear that they did not like group assignments, because group could get 3, while another group could get zero, which is why I was thinking to try sorting them somehow. But I wasn't sure how exactly to assign them.

I think the mechanics part is very true though. I noticed that right as he starts to cast Feud everyone was blowing all of their CD's to top everyone off immediately, and then later in the cast when he starts doing damage again, everything was on cooldown. Telling them to back off and wait until about 15/16s left on the cast to start with things like Healing Rain and the other AOE heals so they were active when the damage actually went out made a difference. Looking at your video, the only real difference I see from an execution perspective is that people aren't dead! I think we just need to work out some healing things/assignments and we should be on the right path.
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Re: Chimaeron

Postby Brutalus » Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:10 pm

I haven't healed it either, but I can try to shed some light. In 25man we have 1 healer assigned to keeping each group above 10k health. If a healer's group is topped then he'll help someone else's group but only if his group is completely safe. If it hits 3 players from the same group, then other group healers should be able to help out since theirs should be fine. For massacres, we make sure it's clear for people that if they see themselves low they use healthstones - although this obviously won't last throughout the fight. I also bring a very WoG-oriented build for the boss, picking up Last Word and Protector of the Innocent in holy.

Somewhat unrelated, if you're struggling with Feud you can always save things like mirror images and pets (and armies) to help soak the damage, similar to Putricide.
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Re: Chimaeron

Postby Rokh » Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:58 pm

we struggled with this fight doing taunts ever 2 stacks, wiped for about 2 hours.

We then switched to the double strike soak meathod, and 1 shotted it... way way better way to kill him.

Esp as a paladin you can use you LoH for a mass+double, or free death ability as well.


we had 1 healer on MT, 1 healer on OT, and 1 healer on the raid... 10man of course.
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Re: Chimaeron

Postby Treck » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:26 pm

Your healers should obviously look out for the "near death" debuff.
If you have one healer assigned to each group, you should still have 2healers or so to help the other healers during massacre.
You dont always get a dubbleattack during a massacre, and if you dont, you should have atleast 7 healers to get people up fast.
And theres always some classes that can handle healing the whole group up faster than others.
As the boss doesnt engage untill when you hit him, you can spread out and set up where to stand before the boss is engaged, making sure your healers are optimised to healing their group (everyone in range of things like holy radiance, chainheal, prayer of healing, healingrain etc etc).
All dpsers should obviously be aware of when they have the near death debuff in order to make sure they get over 10k hp before dying, theres nothing wrong with getting them to use their own surviving stuff/heals, not only the healers are responsible.
Holypaladins will never need any healing, SPs should be able to heal themselves up to 10k without much attention, locks can manage themselves, dks got some heals while dpsing.
All this, depending on your raid comp, can eather make it easier for your 5 healers, or you could even remove one healer since only 4 groups might need attention.
If one tank is taking the breaks, and one is taking the dubbleattacks, those "extra" healers are obviously paying more attention to the OT getting topped for dubbleattacks.
This fight is no way heavy for the tankhealers.
One of the worst things that can happen is getting a massacre while the boss has dubbleattack, altho he will still wait a good ammount of time before he attacks.
Your raidassigned healers will most likely not be able to help getting your tanks up at that point, but 2 "tank" assigned healers should easily be able to get it up fast enough.
If you run with a few paladins, you can assign them to have a LoH rotation for those few times exactly that happends.

As soon as Feud starts you have about 15sec before the first slime.
No tankdmg = more healers on the raid (as im assuming its normalmode)
But every healer have some forms of raidhealing, so grouping up will make you all healed up pretty fast.
Trying to time raidwall/barrier for the slime will help a lot.

This is not as much of an intensive healing fight as it is technical for the healers.
Once you know how and who to heal, this fight isnt that demanding.
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Re: Chimaeron

Postby DJSticky » Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:38 pm

Not much to add, most of the basic strat has already been discussed. I can just add my vote for "the way we did it"

I MTed and had our other tank soak the Dbl Attack. Healers kept him topped directly before taunt and during his tanking. Healers were specifically instructed NOT to heal me no matter how bad they wanted to. I just kept an eagle eye on my health and made sure I had a 2 or 3 hopo WOG ready for whenever I dropped below 10k. Didn't even sweat, I think the boss died with 2/3 CDs unused and the health stone still in my bag.

**edit**
25 man version btw
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