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4.3 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Awyndel » Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:18 am

I'd like to submit this as a survival/utility build:

http://www.wowhead.com/talent#sbhbZhrhcRddRRu0b

The threat should not be a huge difference, because of the threat points picked up in holy.

Run speed on boots ofc.

I'm considering raiding with this for progression. Any thoughts/suggestions?
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:24 am

I'm not sure the base 15% crit lost from Rule of Law is worth trading for the 60% crit when below 35% health of Last Word. It's certainly a situational trade-off; Last Word is obviously better at preventing death in a reactive scenario, but it has no interaction with GbtL's shield, where Rule of Law does. I think Rule of Law would be better for prepping for large boss specials because of the overheal bubble.

It's probably 6 of one, half-dozen of the other though. I can include it under the WoG build section as an option. I don't know if I'd feel confident saying that either is objectively better than the other though. It probably depends a lot on how the individual player tends to use WoG.

Also, the threat drop will be pretty significant. Crusade and Rule of Law are both pretty beastly threat talents.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Awyndel » Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:32 am

Ah, I didn't realise the WOG crit from RoL. Well considering you get threat, run speed, and the constant crit on WOG, the standard spec does look like the overall better one. The crit on low health is prolly too situational to pay so much for it.

Thanks for the info.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby econ21 » Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:45 am

Having run all the 5-mans on normal, I would rate the Glyph of Holy Wrath as required. It is amazing. Do any of the 5-mans NOT have elementals or dragonkin? I am finding trash hits really hard even on normal and our guild healer is almost constantly drinking between pulls. Having an AOE stun on a low CD is a fantastic boon.

The recommendation is particularly since the other majors are unimpressive. I know it is content specific, but this is a guide for Cata and for that content, a palatank without the glyph is not doing it right.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:01 am

I already have it as "Recommended" because it's strong against elemental trash. It wouldn't call it mandatory though. With proper use of CC, heroic trash packs are pretty trivial already. And it's completely useless on the majority of boss fights.

For a glyph to be "mandatory," it's got to be something that will be useful in nearly every situation or something so much more powerful than the other options that you'd rarely or never unglyph it. Holy Wrath doesn't really fit either of those criterion. In fact, there are very few glyphs that fit that description anymore, simply because we have a lot of variety in playstyle options. Even the SoT and SotR glyphs could be swapped out in certain situations.

I do need to make another pass over the Glyph section of the guide though, to remove the old ICC comments and update the descriptions for Cataclysm.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby econ21 » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:56 am

Thanks for the quick reply, theckhd. I just noticed your comment in the general forum that you are unimpressed with Holy Wrath and realised our perceptions are completely opposite.

theckhd wrote:With proper use of CC, heroic trash packs are pretty trivial already.


I am finding normal trash packs very challenging, so I guess we are operating at a different level. What kind of CC can you use on elementals and dragonkin? (That's not a rhetorical question.) Frost trap (hunter), banish (warlock) for sure - cyclone (druid) maybe. I have to relearn this stuff.

For a glyph to be "mandatory," it's got to be something that will be useful in nearly every situation or something so much more powerful than the other options that you'd rarely or never unglyph it.


I agree with the defintion, but not with the refusal to apply it to HW. Again: is there any dungeon (or raid?) in Wotlk which does not have a lot of elementals or dragonkin? I don't think there is. So I think that covers any situation. (You have a point about bosses, but I would not say "every situation" is "every pull". If CC only came from glyphs, for example, it would be "mandatory" but is useless on boss fights.) And what third major would you use instead? Heck, I am struggling even to find a first and second major worth considering. As for how powerful it is, I would imagine that by using holy wrath so often (with 636, I guess it is almost every 12 seconds), it is cutting down the damage incoming by a very large amount. How long does it stun? If it stuns for 2 seconds, is it not cutting down incoming damage by 17% (2/12) and isn't that a massive amount of damage reduction from a glyph?
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:51 pm

econ21 wrote:I am finding normal trash packs very challenging, so I guess we are operating at a different level. What kind of CC can you use on elementals and dragonkin? (That's not a rhetorical question.) Frost trap (hunter), banish (warlock) for sure - cyclone (druid) maybe. I have to relearn this stuff.


I didn't even bother with CC on normal trash packs while leveling. For the most part, trash packs didn't seem remotely dangerous even while going all-out on threat (i.e. dumping holy power into Inq or SotR and not WoG). Admittedly, I leveled almost entirely in guild groups with raid-tested healers, so YMMV.

Heroic trash is certainly less forgiving, and we've just taken to using CC every pull to make things easier. My group comp changes from run to run, but I usually have a rogue for Sap (which works on damn near everything now, apparently, including Dragonkin) and a mage or warlock for sheep/fear/banish. Nearly every DPS spec has a CC spell now that's usable on at least one mob in each trash pack.

I have found Holy Wrath useful in that capacity, as a stun. But I've pretty much only been using it as a stun, because the damage is so weak. I've found that mana concerns while AoE tanking were more of an issue than I expected, and Holy Wrath's weak damage just doesn't a 4k+ mana cost most of the time. When everyone is nuking down the kill target, Hammer is more than sufficient for AoE threat.

econ21 wrote:I agree with the defintion, but not with the refusal to apply it to HW. Again: is there any dungeon (or raid?) in Wotlk which does not have a lot of elementals or dragonkin? I don't think there is. So I think that covers any situation. (You have a point about bosses, but I would not say "every situation" is "every pull". If CC only came from glyphs, for example, it would be "mandatory" but is useless on boss fights.) And what third major would you use instead? Heck, I am struggling even to find a first and second major worth considering. As for how powerful it is, I would imagine that by using holy wrath so often (with 636, I guess it is almost every 12 seconds), it is cutting down the damage incoming by a very large amount. How long does it stun? If it stuns for 2 seconds, is it not cutting down incoming damage by 17% (2/12) and isn't that a massive amount of damage reduction from a glyph?


Heroic dungeons contain lots of both, so you certainly have a point there. As far as raids though, it's nearly useless so far. Throne has no trash, the trash before the first boss of Bastion is all humanoid, Blackwing only has two construct trash mobs before the first boss. You could unglyph Holy Wrath entirely if you wanted in favor of Ascetic Crusader, for example, so you could dump more mana into Consecration and cast Judgement less (for fights where you spend most of your time Wogging).

939 lets you cast Holy Wrath every 18 seconds at best, and it's a 3-second stun. So it's roughly a 17% decrease in damage taken from Elementals/Dragonkin.

However, outside of the stun and damage reduction, Holy Wrath is pretty crappy. With Consecrate, Hammer of Wrath, and Grand Crusader procs you cast it much less often than every 18 seconds. It's actually more like every 5th or 6th cycle, so maybe once every 45 seconds. So the benefit of the incidental stuns are fairly insignificant if you're trying for maximum single-target threat.

Again, I don't think it's a bad glyph at all. It's an incredibly useful glyph, which is why it's "Recommended." But it's just not universal enough to feel mandatory in my mind. It's mostly useless in raids, and you can live without it perfectly well in dungeons and heroics as long as your group plays well. It's certainly a powerful option for heroics, but it's an option nonetheless.

I usually run with Dazing Shield / Consecration / Holy Wrath. But for raids, I'd normally switch to Focused Shield / Cons / Ascetic Crusader, because Holy Wrath just isn't very useful in those situations.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby econ21 » Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:26 pm

Thanks theckhd. I did not know about Cata raids, but I will take my 17% damage reduction (on quite a bit of heroic trash) for now. To be honest, I would have considered 1% a big number for a glyph - rather like the old "no-brainer" minor glyph sense undead and that was 1% threat, not survival related.

Going off on a tangent:

theckhd wrote: I usually run with Dazing Shield / Consecration / Holy Wrath.


What's the appeal of dazing shield for you? (In the guide, you only mention PvP.) I would imagine it might have some synergy with CC - a little more time for the mage to poly the mobs before they get to you. Or is it something else? The dazing did not fit the wotlk "in your face" style of tanking, but I quite liked it in with the more CC/stationary BC heroic pulls. I suppose, rather like the HW stun, if you slow the advance of melee mobs, you are effectively getting some damage reduction (given your party will have ranged attacks).

Right now my other two glyphs are consecration and ascetic crusader, but they seem optional to me so I am considering others.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby knaughty » Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:38 pm

Just a quick update from the field: 

Based on first three raid targets, the correct raiding build will be to maximize WoG. We've killed OmegaTronRobotCouncil and Tol Barad, and given GenieTriplePlayBoss enough of a try to understand the mechanics, ShoR is used for snap aggro on the pull and for locking down a taunt or target switch. Outside first 10 seconds of a boss fight, you don't generally need the threat from ShoR, while the healing from WoG is both substantial and useful. Yes, those are different things. I keep being asked b beakers "Zomg! Where'd that heal come from?"

General pace of combat is much slower - you do have time to act to shit. You can spend enormous amounts of time not topped off, you only need full health for boss specials, not the next swing. Reactive use of CDs is thus possible. I'm using the two 20% CDs ver frequently as "help the healer catch up" cool downs. You can pop them preemptively to save some healer mana. I'm stacking them for a real CD or using GAnK.

Put the PBAoE heal on you bars. Very useful in heroics - there's lots of "stack up and take damage" phases. Your healer will appreciate the help.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:30 pm

econ21 wrote:Thanks theckhd. I did not know about Cata raids, but I will take my 17% damage reduction (on quite a bit of heroic trash) for now. To be honest, I would have considered 1% a big number for a glyph - rather like the old "no-brainer" minor glyph sense undead and that was 1% threat, not survival related.

1% damage reduction on everything would be a no-brainer. 20% damage reduction on trash is, well, a trash glyph. If the content you're working on is heroics, then yes, it's a great glyph. If you're even remotely close to killing the first few raid bosses, then heroic trash is already a non-issue, making the glyph far less important.

econ21 wrote:Going off on a tangent:

What's the appeal of dazing shield for you? (In the guide, you only mention PvP.)

I like pulling in heroics by hitting the CC targets with AS. That way I get about 30k threat on each so that they come right to me instead of the healer if CC breaks, and the daze helps separate them from the other mobs so that I can use Cons and HotR more easily. I've also used it in a few dicey situations to kite a few mobs to prevent a wipe. There are definitely times where it's annoying though, mostly when trying to pull casters farther away from something.

knaughty wrote:Just a quick update from the field: 

Based on first three raid targets, the correct raiding build will be to maximize WoG. We've killed OmegaTronRobotCouncil and Tol Barad, and given GenieTriplePlayBoss enough of a try to understand the mechanics, ShoR is used for snap aggro on the pull and for locking down a taunt or target switch. Outside first 10 seconds of a boss fight, you don't generally need the threat from ShoR, while the healing from WoG is both substantial and useful. Yes, those are different things. I keep being asked b beakers "Zomg! Where'd that heal come from?"


My experience is pretty much the same. We've downed Argalon, Wyrmbreaker, and the Genies, and in all cases I spent more than half the fight Wogging. The tron council is the same story, SotR for the first time you face each bot to build a threat lead, then WoG after that.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:22 am

I was going to keep Shield glyph and switch out my judgment glyph to Word of Glory...

I spend most of the fights spamming Word of Glory and honestly expect a nerf.

I've killed council, halthus, and genie people thus far, and definitely feel that is appropriate.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Nephelim » Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:22 am

Nice guide
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Derrickster » Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:17 am

I've been attempting to create a build that not only keeps all of the WoG talents, but also maximizes your threat after the fact... and this is what I have come up with.

http://www.wowhead.com/talent#sZGrhsRdkkRucbh

With this build I am using the 939 rotation: (CS-J-CS-X-CS-SotR)

Reasons behind what might be viewed as iffy talent choices:
-1/2 Hallowed Ground: through droughts of having NO Grand Crusader procs, this keeps mana at a much higher level (usualy around full) whereas without the talent I was finding myself under 8k quite constantly.

-1/2 Grand Crusader and 1/2 Guarded by the Light: I know I said "all WoG talents" but just having the point in Grand Crusader allows for RNG to take its course and provide some decent bursty threat every-so-often and 1/2 Guarded by the Light still procs Holy Shield and only loses 5% of its heal (I rarely find myself overhealing with WoG so the very short duration absorb almost never comes into play).

-0/2 Pursuit of Justice: using the boot enchant run speed which does not stack. Although it may be worth noting that the enchant run speed boost has traditionally been 8% while PoJ is 15% (I don't know if cata's boot enchant is 8% or not I have not tested it yet).

If anyone has other questions concerning why I chose a specific talent or, I would be more then happy to let you know the thought process behind my insanity =]

(This is my first post here so I hope everything turns out ok)
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Awyndel » Fri Dec 24, 2010 4:03 am

Saw Lazeil there dropping 1 point reckoning to get 2/2 grand crusader. For adds and interupts I would asume.

Perhaps an idea to consider.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Derrickster » Fri Dec 24, 2010 4:37 am

With the random nature of Grand Crusader Procs due to RNG (not that reckoning is any different really, besides the fact that Grand Crusader has a % chance to proc every other GCD (CS/HotR) and reckoning has a % chance on blocking to proc) and the fact that having the first priority of the X in the 939 rotation being the interrupt you are talking about (the interrupt almost always being on CD, not to mention being on your normal global and not a seperate one like most interrupts make AS not worth using for interrupts unless there are no other options in my opinion) this leaves the deciding factor to the amount of threat generated by both points, and from what I have seen from Theck's numbers, reckoning is by far more threat than Grand Crusader. So if I am not mistaken I think I will stick with reckoning =]

(assuming adds and interrupts are really the purpose of his point swapping)
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