Raid Order

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Re: Raid Order

Postby Metherlance » Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:16 am

Belloc wrote:Magmaw requires a tank switch, as a tank will get a large debuff applied to them after mangle (I think). That's probably what your healers deemed "unhealable".


Dunno which one you are talking about but 10m (1 tank 3 healers) is easily doable with one tank. The debuff, by the way, is -50% armor.
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Re: Raid Order

Postby mosa » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:34 am

Well we laid down the smackdown last night (not to harsh mind you). We opened up the gbank coffers (we were sitting on 180K) and as in Wolk we are providing free enchanting mats for 346 gear, and discounted gems. I'll have to get on top of a leatherworker for leg enchants, and a bs for buckles... sob too bad they hotfixed to make us use the new one.

One comment I imediatly got was that dps is a function of cooldowns now, which I know is total bs, if they didn't help they wouldn't be in the game. Any suggestions how I can rebuke this type of attitude? Obviously if it's as little as a 5% improvment, that 5% across 10 people is a big overall effect.

As well, my original question was where should we start, I'm thinking we might be able to try Omnitron Defense System and get back into the Conclave fight.
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Re: Raid Order

Postby Belloc » Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:52 am

Metherlance wrote:
Belloc wrote:Magmaw requires a tank switch, as a tank will get a large debuff applied to them after mangle (I think). That's probably what your healers deemed "unhealable".


Dunno which one you are talking about but 10m (1 tank 3 healers) is easily doable with one tank. The debuff, by the way, is -50% armor.


Yes, it's doable with 1 tank. That doesn't make it optimal or safe. Generally, when you're fighting new content, you do it the way that it's supposed to be done. A 50% armor debuff means that you need to tank swap. Suggesting otherwise is not helpful.
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Re: Raid Order

Postby inthedrops » Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:38 am

That armor debuff from Magmaw appears to be 10 man only. It doesn't exist in 25 when I tanked it.

Some random 10 man log:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-so712v8f4fyotn4v/details/8/?s=5711&e=6150

My 25 log:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/xywb4r7layck362h/details/3/?s=2653&e=3075

It's probably why not everyone mentions it.
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Re: Raid Order

Postby Xfighter » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:45 pm

For Magmaw, if you have a well-geared 346 tank, swapping really isn't needed.

Our 10-man kill consisted of 2 tanks, 3 healers. I was on magmaw 100%, the other tank was a DK kiting the adds 100%.

Cooldowning through the 30-50 seconds of tanking with 50% armor debuff wasn't too horrid, and our tank healer was fine for mana generally, as they do get that 20-30 second period of rest time while he's grounded. Only one attempt did the solo tank strat fail, when CD's were down and I managed to take 2 80k-ish hits back to back :oops: .
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Re: Raid Order

Postby Hokahey » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:13 am

mosa wrote:
One comment I imediatly got was that dps is a function of cooldowns now, which I know is total bs, if they didn't help they wouldn't be in the game. Any suggestions how I can rebuke this type of attitude? Obviously if it's as little as a 5% improvment, that 5% across 10 people is a big overall effect.


Well, you're statement there is one obvious response.

Depending on how stern you're willing to get, it may come down to this: "My raid, my rules. You wear the best gear you can get, its enchanted and gemmed properly. Otherwise, you don't come with me."

If you are still feeling inclined to reason with unreasonable people, you could point out that the Blizzard developers themselves design encounters under the assumption that the players will use the available enchants, and tune difficulty according to that. By not using enchants or gems, your raiders are handicapping themselves. Another idea, they potentially are costing both you and themselves valuable and irreplaceable real-life time spent possibly wiping or dying for the sake of easily acquired and replaceable in-game gold. That second one works great for people who talk about how they "have a life" and therefore don't need to put enchants on their gear.

Finally, I'll just throw out there that nothing makes a raider's ears perk up like loot rules, perhaps "unenchanted gear will not be replaced by a raid drop in this raid, even if it means disenchanting it first". The key, of course, is *meaning* these things when you say them.
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Re: Raid Order

Postby Metherlance » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:52 am

Belloc wrote:
Metherlance wrote:
Belloc wrote:Magmaw requires a tank switch, as a tank will get a large debuff applied to them after mangle (I think). That's probably what your healers deemed "unhealable".


Dunno which one you are talking about but 10m (1 tank 3 healers) is easily doable with one tank. The debuff, by the way, is -50% armor.


Yes, it's doable with 1 tank. That doesn't make it optimal or safe. Generally, when you're fighting new content, you do it the way that it's supposed to be done. A 50% armor debuff means that you need to tank swap. Suggesting otherwise is not helpful.


In my opinion it is far more optimal to drop one tank to take one more ranged dps to help with the parasites, than to have one tank doing sub-optimal dps on boss, or kiting the adds which would be/is unnecessary with proper dps and movement.

Edit: Just to clarify, we had no problems on tank healing, only problem for us was with the parasites. If we had second tank and one less ranged dps, we couldn't kill it for 100% sure. If it was a melee dps, it wouldn't matter as much.
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Re: Raid Order

Postby heuvarius » Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:33 am

Of all the ones I've done Ascendant Council feels by far the hardest of the non-end bosses.
Haven't had many pulls @ Chimereon yet, but it didn't feel too hard after a couple of late night attempts we had.

Conclave > Omnotron > Magmaw > Halfus > Valiona > Atramedes > Chimereon > Maloriak > Ascedant Council would probably be the path I pick if I need to learn all the bosses again. Halfus RNGBreaker is the only one that will vary on the list, depending on which drakes you get. (Storm, Time, Nether would be quite a painful combo.)
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Re: Raid Order

Postby sakkdaddy » Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:05 am

1. Baradin Hold - faceroll easy shit
2. Conclave of Wind
3. Magmaw (you need a good setup more than anything, heavy ranged dps and a frost dk with chillblains is amazing, or a demo lock)
4. Omnitron
5. Maloriak
6. Halfus
7. Valiona & Theralion
8. Atramedes
9. Chimaeron
10. Ascendant Council
11. Al'akir
12. Cho'gall
13. Nefarian

That's the order I recommend. Regarding gear and enchants, I've asked my raiders to basically do this: "Put the best gems and enchants possible in your epics, and at least put the 2nd best gems and enchants available in your blues." Flasks and repairs are major raiding expenses right now, so depending on your group, you might need to make a similar compromise just so everyone can afford to raid.
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Re: Raid Order

Postby Sober » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:58 am

Belloc wrote:
Metherlance wrote:
Belloc wrote:Magmaw requires a tank switch, as a tank will get a large debuff applied to them after mangle (I think). That's probably what your healers deemed "unhealable".


Dunno which one you are talking about but 10m (1 tank 3 healers) is easily doable with one tank. The debuff, by the way, is -50% armor.


Yes, it's doable with 1 tank. That doesn't make it optimal or safe. Generally, when you're fighting new content, you do it the way that it's supposed to be done. A 50% armor debuff means that you need to tank swap. Suggesting otherwise is not helpful.

Solo tanked it last night, didn't see a problem. He would mangle me, but almost immediately following that, he would switch phases to be chained down, so Sweltering Armour (the debuff) would fade by the time he's active again after spitting me out.
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Re: Raid Order

Postby heuvarius » Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:20 pm

sakkdaddy wrote:11. Al'akir
12. Cho'gall
13. Nefarian


Cho'gall is a lot easier than Al'akir. At least it was for my guild.
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Re: Raid Order

Postby Strendarr » Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:12 am

So IMO Atramedes needs to be moved up more towards the top of those lists. We got him to 4 mill HP in 30 mins worth of attempts tonight. He's the easiest boss we've encountered besides Baradin Hold (wrath tuned pug-boss HIYOOOHHH).
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Re: Raid Order

Postby Belloc » Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:07 am

heuvarius wrote:
sakkdaddy wrote:11. Al'akir
12. Cho'gall
13. Nefarian


Cho'gall is a lot easier than Al'akir. At least it was for my guild.

I agree.
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Re: Raid Order

Postby PsiVen » Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:20 pm

Sober wrote:
Belloc wrote:Yes, it's doable with 1 tank. That doesn't make it optimal or safe. Generally, when you're fighting new content, you do it the way that it's supposed to be done. A 50% armor debuff means that you need to tank swap. Suggesting otherwise is not helpful.

Solo tanked it last night, didn't see a problem. He would mangle me, but almost immediately following that, he would switch phases to be chained down, so Sweltering Armour (the debuff) would fade by the time he's active again after spitting me out.


Sweltering Armor lasts 2 minutes. It fades during the start of the following Mangle. If you don't tank swap, you have -50% armor for the rest of the fight.

Yes, if you're controlling parasites well and cooldowning you can probably heal through it safely. That doesn't mean it's the best idea, as 2-tanking it makes the fight much easier as long as you aren't taking away from parasite DPS/control.
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Re: Raid Order

Postby exiledknight » Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:04 am

We solo tank Magmaw and I have not noticed the mangle debuff at all in 25 man. Other than when I am picked up in his mouth damage remains fairly low and steady, I will have to take a look at logs now tonight to see if what was suggested earlier in the thread holds true.
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