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Paladin being guild MT?

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Postby amadiss » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:27 pm

Lore wrote:There's some merit to rotating tanks around for specific encounters if attendance is a concern, however we've generally found it sufficient to let the learning nights be on nights when the other tank isn't there anyway. There's not a big difference between tanking something new because you have to and tanking something new just for the hell of it.

That said, we've been rotating tanks for the boring single-tank fights (like Teron) lately just to keep people from getting bored doing the same thing every week. There generally isn't a big difference anyway.


I agree, even if I may not like it, I learn more about an encounter if I go sometimes as healer and some times as tank.
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Postby NarfJones » Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:44 pm

Lore wrote:Things differ from guild to guild though, it really just comes down to whatever works best with your group of people. For the most part, our group is just happy to raid, and not super interested in loot.


That is why i raid. For the encounter. Downing the boss is as important as the loot they drop. obviously, once the whole game is on farm, it's not as much a question of "can you down the big ugly?" but "This is a fun game, and Im glad Im with a good group to play it"
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Postby Fedaykin98 » Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:14 am

Man, I am tired of guilds, guild leaders, and random idiots who haven't gotten the BC memo about Paladin tanks. And now the 2.3 stam buff...PLEASE.

The worst part is that these people usually consider themselves knowledgable about the game, like they're in a position to correct the misconceptions and mistaken aspirations of the noob tankadin.

Kalinon, imho, the two approaches you can take are:

1) If you're gonna be like that, I'm out, and I'm taking my 70 Resto Shaman with me! This is the aggressive approach.

2) Run them through BM and SH and watch their jaws drop as you tank everything. It looks like your Pally is 60, so you'll have to bide your time on this one. You'll also need to make sure you're geared enough and have a reliable healer, or you'll get the opposite effect of what you wanted. In the meantime, just practice tanking in the various BC instances.
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Postby Thax » Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:57 am

Lore wrote:The answer to that question is yes, a Paladin can easily be the guy that gets put in front of something ugly and told to break the bad guy's equipment with his face before the bad guy breaks his face with his equipment.


sigged!
Yes, a Paladin can easily be the guy that gets put in front of something ugly and told to break the bad guy's equipment with his face before the bad guy breaks his face with his equipment. ~Lore
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Postby Havn » Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:02 pm

Who does the imp demo shout, tclap and commanding shout for you when you are main tanking bosses.

I can deal without the oh sh*t talents. I just really get stuck up on the fact that we have to have that pocket warrior in there tclapping and such.

We already drop close to 1500ish hp compared to a Tauren warrior. I just get a little depressed looking at some of the numbers. Hard to convince your guild to let you main tank the boss when you really do walk in at a decent disadvantage.
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Postby Dandreai » Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:45 pm

Havn wrote:Who does the imp demo shout, tclap and commanding shout for you when you are main tanking bosses.

I can deal without the oh sh*t talents. I just really get stuck up on the fact that we have to have that pocket warrior in there tclapping and such.

We already drop close to 1500ish hp compared to a Tauren warrior. I just get a little depressed looking at some of the numbers. Hard to convince your guild to let you main tank the boss when you really do walk in at a decent disadvantage.


I see Pally tanking as a challenge, and I find enjoyment in meeting that challenge as best I can when I play. In the end the game may be pointless but it's what you do and how you go about it that's important. If someone tells me I can't do something, well them I'm going to put them to the test until I either give up because it simply can't be done or I do it.

I've been in groups that favored warriors well above tankadins, but after insisting and constantly sticking my neck out there, even being undergeared in some cases, I did what I came to do. I'm not the main tank for a guild helping them get geared up enough to get into kara.

It isn't a matter so much if the class is capable, it's more of a matter if your capable. I've played with tankadins better geared then me (mostly) but yet I was able to tank things better than them. Tanking as a pally starts a type of dedication and heart.
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Postby Khayne » Sat Dec 15, 2007 11:10 pm

Havn wrote:Who does the imp demo shout, tclap and commanding shout for you when you are main tanking bosses.

I can deal without the oh sh*t talents. I just really get stuck up on the fact that we have to have that pocket warrior in there tclapping and such.

We already drop close to 1500ish hp compared to a Tauren warrior. I just get a little depressed looking at some of the numbers. Hard to convince your guild to let you main tank the boss when you really do walk in at a decent disadvantage.


Well seeing as my paladin dont raid yet i can´t say that much about the "you need attleast 1, any specced warrior to raid", but as my main is a warlock, i can tell you that i think it´s an absolute nightmare to raid if there is 0 paladins either (Salvation IS the best dps buff in the game, hands down).

When i last time went to gruuls lair without a paladin, i told RL i´d rather bring in my paladin to do his really really crappy offhealing or just stand somewhere in there looking stupid just so other dps could get the salvation. luckily a holy paladin logged on at the time though (there´s not a single dps char that can do more benefit to 25 men raid than one paladin throwing a salvation on them.)

Can you kill stuff that slowly? Sure you can.

If there´s an enrage timer on yer ass? I aint trying.

*EDIT*: Also, if there were 0 paladin in raids, your warriors/druids wouldn´t got +10% stamina and they´d also got less avoidance And do less threat (agi and strenght increases too).
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Postby Invisusira » Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:34 am

Havn wrote:Who does the imp demo shout, tclap and commanding shout for you when you are main tanking bosses.

I can deal without the oh sh*t talents. I just really get stuck up on the fact that we have to have that pocket warrior in there tclapping and such.

We already drop close to 1500ish hp compared to a Tauren warrior. I just get a little depressed looking at some of the numbers. Hard to convince your guild to let you main tank the boss when you really do walk in at a decent disadvantage.

lolwut

While those are all nice, I don't see them as "needed" at all.

Kings, btw.
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Postby Havn » Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:08 am

All of those abilities are needed when progressing on end game bosses. If you take a look at the elitist jerk prot warrior post they talk about how imp demo shout is about a 14.5-20% reduction in total damage. Imp Tclap gives 20% slower attack speed. That is a huge amount of damage reduction between the two.

Commanding shout is an extra 1350hp which is a very nice cushion in boss fights. The argument about kings just doesn't hold. Every raid will have holy paladins present.

My post wasn't saying it isn't possible to main tank. I just find it hard for myself to convince my GM that while our MT warrior is on vacation that he should let me step up and main tank over our other warrior tank. I don't mean on things we have been farming for a few months.

It would be nice if dps warriors came equipped with all those talents that we needed to tank in their normal builds. If it didn't lessen their dps to put all the buffs we need up it would be amazing.

So we end up down imp demo, imp tclap, commanding shout, shield wall, and last stand. Not that we need those exact skills but something to level the playing field a bit would be very nice. What advantages do we have? We get more charges on our holy shield and the ability to easily hold aggro on multiple trash mobs. Not such a good tradeoff.

Some will argue we have the ability to switch out gear and heal on some fights. This is a nice bonus that can keep us in raids when a fight doesn't need offtanks. I would just rather have a choice of losing our healing viability in raids in order to gain some of the advantages a warrior has.
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Postby Blaen99 » Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:09 am

Havn wrote:All of those abilities are needed when progressing on end game bosses. If you take a look at the elitist jerk prot warrior post they talk about how imp demo shout is about a 14.5-20% reduction in total damage. Imp Tclap gives 20% slower attack speed. That is a huge amount of damage reduction between the two.

Commanding shout is an extra 1350hp which is a very nice cushion in boss fights. The argument about kings just doesn't hold. Every raid will have holy paladins present.

My post wasn't saying it isn't possible to main tank. I just find it hard for myself to convince my GM that while our MT warrior is on vacation that he should let me step up and main tank over our other warrior tank. I don't mean on things we have been farming for a few months.

It would be nice if dps warriors came equipped with all those talents that we needed to tank in their normal builds. If it didn't lessen their dps to put all the buffs we need up it would be amazing.

So we end up down imp demo, imp tclap, commanding shout, shield wall, and last stand. Not that we need those exact skills but something to level the playing field a bit would be very nice. What advantages do we have? We get more charges on our holy shield and the ability to easily hold aggro on multiple trash mobs. Not such a good tradeoff.

Some will argue we have the ability to switch out gear and heal on some fights. This is a nice bonus that can keep us in raids when a fight doesn't need offtanks. I would just rather have a choice of losing our healing viability in raids in order to gain some of the advantages a warrior has.


Does it count that we run 3 different tanking classes, and have each one tank what they are best for on progression?

TClap and Demo shout can be done by DPS warriors. No biggie. However, I wouldn't willingly have a warrior MT, for instance, Morogrim Tidewalker on a progression kill.
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Postby Havn » Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:31 am

The problem that pops up a lot is the lack of imp tclap/imp demo shout in the talent builds of our fury warriors. Where kings is just base line practically for any holy paladin.

Now that i go back and look at some of the numbers it isn't a huge deal as long as the dps warrior is keeping both up. It is still a decent loss. Here is a quote from elitist jerks forum.

-210ap -- 13.9% reduction
-300ap -- 17.7% reduction
-510ap -- 18.55% reduction


So without imp devo we are only losing a small amount of damage reduction. Without imp tclap we are still losing 10% slower attack speed. Of course we probably wont be running with commanding shout since the dps warrior will most likely be in the melee dps group.

So if we just straight up switched the pally tank for the warrior tank we are losing 10% slower attack speed 1350 hp from commanding plus the already over 1500 bonus the tauren warriors have. We also lose the two "oh sh*t" skills.

While this isn't as big of a loss as I probably made it out to be in the earlier posts it is still a decent gap. The seal that was bandied about a few months ago would go a long way to reducing the gap. It was what 10% less damage when judged on the target. It had some hp component like a a last stand. We would then just be down the commanding shout hp over a warrior.
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Postby Aalryn » Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:53 am

Havn wrote:So if we just straight up switched the pally tank for the warrior tank we are

losing 10% slower attack speed
1350 hp from commanding.
We also lose the two "oh sh*t" skills.


These are the three things that we are missing. Demo and t-clap can always (and usually are) kept up by other warriors. Commanding shout is a big one, and the two "oh shit" buttons are a big deal. 30% more HP with last stand and the damage reduction for holy shield are key when tanking progression. I can't even imagine how many first kills would have taken longer without those two abilities.

As far as the tauren hp difference... I already out HP an equally geared tauren warrior.
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"Error: Armory link not found" ... Tankadin no more
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Postby Havn » Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:25 pm

Hrmm my math must be off then. I was working on figuring out when i would end up passing the warrior tank and here are the numbers i was using.

Currently i have 927stam from gear and unbuffed hp of 15517
He has 1022 stam from gear and unbuffed hp of 17382

So my hp is:
927*1.1*1.06= +137= *10= +3197+150= 15525 hp

His
1022*1.05= +141= *10.5= +4484+150= 17382 hp

so my hp would be: (1022-31(from the gun))
991*1.1*1.06= +137= *10= +3197+150= 16272 hp


I think this math is right. I'm not completely sure though. The results have been pretty close on any player I've ran the numbers on.

Edit:

Removed.. ill redo the numbers with the right player this time :)
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Postby Brute » Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:58 am

Lore wrote:I don't believe in giving tanks loot priority, at least since TBC; I see too many guilds struggling on fights like Vashj or Kael because they gave all their T4/T5 to the tank and now their DPS can't kill things fast enough, or their healers can't keep people up. Having geared healers and DPS has become just as important as having geared tanks these days, even more so in some situations.


It would tick me off if they give loot priority to a warrior MT. The way we do it, whoever has the most DKP wins the item. Therefore, whoever has been most consistent, or whoever hasn't ever bought anything, will be the one who gets it. If you're willing to dump 50% of your DKP on an item, and you have more than anyone else, its all yours.
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Postby Christendom » Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:22 am

now the question is, how does one convince their raid leaders to bring a tankadin. My guild rolls with 1 prot warrior, 2 feral druids and a dps warrior. the dps warrior isn't interested in tanking gear, so i've picked up quite a bit of tanking gear..and im prolly the best geared one on the server.

we're working on ROS atm, everything including hyjal on farm.

so basically how do you convince a guild who has had moderate success so far that a pally tank would improve their raid?
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