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Twilight Ascendants (25 man)

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Twilight Ascendants (25 man)

Postby Jonlo » Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:58 am

We can't get the Elemental Monstrosity past 5%. We have 8 melee, so it's a pretty melee heavy group, and we're starting in the middle, making a counter clockwise spiral outwards for the liquid ice. I think our DPS is just really low, running 6 healers currently, and adding another DPS isn't going to make up that last 4 million HP. Maybe 7 healers?
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Re: Twilight Ascendants (25 man)

Postby Protigy » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:38 am

Jonlo wrote:We can't get the Elemental Monstrosity past 5%. We have 8 melee, so it's a pretty melee heavy group, and we're starting in the middle, making a counter clockwise spiral outwards for the liquid ice. I think our DPS is just really low, running 6 healers currently, and adding another DPS isn't going to make up that last 4 million HP. Maybe 7 healers?

What are the % when you push for each of the first two phases?

We wiped consistently with less than 1 million hp on the Monstrosity due to poor phase % control when pushed. If you have both sub-30% for phase 1 and both sub-30% for phase 2, and you are still unable to kill it before a raid wipe, then your dps is the issue.

Also remember to consider that if there are dps deaths prior to phase 3, that is a significant factor in the burn of phase 3. Feel free to look at our logs and compare:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/realms/51/ (US-Cho'gall)
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Re: Twilight Ascendants (25 man)

Postby inthedrops » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:43 am

We struggled a lot too. But we spent time refining everything we could to finally get the kill last night. Note that our DPS over the years is has always been consistently light but we always manage the kills through execution. It's our only real strength :)

Things we did included P1 refinements such as:
1. Making sure to spread the melee and ranged debuff to the appropriate groups before dispelling it. This made breaking shield quicker on fire boss and made P1 go quicker all around.

For P3 we made some changes as well:
1. Refined the crap out of our positions. Every ranged was assigned a spot and a partner to stand on.
2. Refined the crap out of our kiting pattern to optimize DPS. Tried to move boss as little as possible and in a way the reduces ranged movement as little as possible.
3. Used Heroism and all raid type cooldowns AFTER the first Gravity Crush instead of at the start of the phase.

We also sit out 3 or so lowest DPS and replaced them with higher DPS for that fight. I believe we sat two melee and brought in two more ranged but I'm pretty sure there was one other player change as well. We also reviewed the state of everyone's gemming and gear and some officers just started handing out enchants and gem cuts for those who weren't up to snuff.

Finally, for the first time in Cataclysm we had to flask up with new flasks.

All of this was required for us and with it we managed a very respectable 5:38 kill time.

Here's our logs, you can see how inconsistent and uneven our DPS spread is:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/84svk2deffutaejz/sum/damageDone/?s=2383&e=2722

Raid DPS: 216,547
Max: 18,531
Min: 10,217

For reference, the day before where we wiped 30 times without these refinements our raid DPS was well under 200,000.
Last edited by inthedrops on Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Twilight Ascendants (25 man)

Postby baleogthefierce » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:45 am

We didn't have the healers online last night to work on this in 25-man, but in 10-man with 3 melee the damage in phase 3 was too much to handle, so we simply had our melee rotating off the boss periodically to top off their health. We also found that a wide kite path around the outside of the room gave the healers/ranged plenty of space to spread out so that the lightning damage was minimized.

As Synthesis said, the key to a short phase 3 really is boss health control in the first two phases. The second time we were able to push both sets of bosses to 25% simultaneously we got our kill.
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Re: Twilight Ascendants (25 man)

Postby inthedrops » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:58 am

baleogthefierce wrote:We didn't have the healers online last night to work on this in 25-man, but in 10-man with 3 melee the damage in phase 3 was too much to handle, so we simply had our melee rotating off the boss periodically to top off their health. We also found that a wide kite path around the outside of the room gave the healers/ranged plenty of space to spread out so that the lightning damage was minimized.

As Synthesis said, the key to a short phase 3 really is boss health control in the first two phases. The second time we were able to push both sets of bosses to 25% simultaneously we got our kill.


I will come right out and admit I have never done 10 man cataclysm raids. But I will also stick my neck out there and say that these kinds of things aren't going to help in 25 man. There is very little room to find a free spot to stand in. DPS needs to use their healthstones and personal survival cooldowns to stay alive. They cannot afford the time to stop DPS'ing in P3. No one, not even the tank is able to be topped off in 25 man.

And again, the whole spacing thing in 25 is a much larger issue. Due to boss kiting, and people needing to be in range of everything, the lightning damage has to be handled in a manner that I am guessing is going to be different than 10 man. I know I'm invoking the 10/25 space issue argument, but I think this fight is a good example of it. I'm not saying one is easier, just saying that I think this fight requires careful approach in P3.
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Re: Twilight Ascendants (25 man)

Postby baleogthefierce » Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:34 am

inthedrops wrote:
baleogthefierce wrote:We didn't have the healers online last night to work on this in 25-man, but in 10-man with 3 melee the damage in phase 3 was too much to handle, so we simply had our melee rotating off the boss periodically to top off their health. We also found that a wide kite path around the outside of the room gave the healers/ranged plenty of space to spread out so that the lightning damage was minimized.

As Synthesis said, the key to a short phase 3 really is boss health control in the first two phases. The second time we were able to push both sets of bosses to 25% simultaneously we got our kill.


I will come right out and admit I have never done 10 man cataclysm raids. But I will also stick my neck out there and say that these kinds of things aren't going to help in 25 man. There is very little room to find a free spot to stand in. DPS needs to use their healthstones and personal survival cooldowns to stay alive. They cannot afford the time to stop DPS'ing in P3. No one, not even the tank is able to be topped off in 25 man.

And again, the whole spacing thing in 25 is a much larger issue. Due to boss kiting, and people needing to be in range of everything, the lightning damage has to be handled in a manner that I am guessing is going to be different than 10 man. I know I'm invoking the 10/25 space issue argument, but I think this fight is a good example of it. I'm not saying one is easier, just saying that I think this fight requires careful approach in P3.


I don't think anyone could realistically argue that the 25-man version of this fight is somehow easier than the 10-man. :P

Now that I re-read the OP, they're running 8 melee (which I wouldn't call melee-heavy); for some reason I had in my mind that they had a heavy melee imbalance.
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Re: Twilight Ascendants (25 man)

Postby Jonlo » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:19 am

Thanks for the advice so far, I think it will really help.

Here's our logs from last night:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/v41a ... boss=43686
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Re: Twilight Ascendants (25 man)

Postby inthedrops » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:38 am

Jonlo wrote:Thanks for the advice so far, I think it will really help.

Here's our logs from last night:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/v41a ... boss=43686


DPS looks too low at the moment. See if anything above helps. Again, we had to flask/gem/enchant for this one so ask everyone to do it. I'm sure they'll be happy to when you can show that more DPS is needed.
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Re: Twilight Ascendants (25 man)

Postby Kerriodos » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:41 am

Trying not to steal this topic from the OP, but figured this would be a better place to ask than making a new topic.

We had an issue with Ingacious's tank (myself) being gibbed by a combination of Flame Torrent and Hydro Lance at the same time. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to cooldown every Flame Torrent (I run out after only a few, even with Divine Protection), nor do I know if I can predict being hit by Hydro Lance. I'm assuming the problem here is simply gear--I'm the least geared of our tanks, having not won any raid drops yet--combined with my Mastery not affecting magic damage. Should we be having the DK or Druid tank handle Ignacious instead of me, or are we missing a mechanic here? I know I didn't have Waterlogged when I was hit by both, and one time even had a cooldown up and still fell over.

I can't help the OP, unfortunately, as I was sitting on our 10 man kill and 10 man experience may not help in this case. Sorry to steal your thread!
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Re: Twilight Ascendants (25 man)

Postby Belloc » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:53 am

If you're utilizing Heart of Ice and Burning Blood in phase 1, you can get the bosses below 25% health without much issue.

On the second set of bosses, you can organize your DPS so that the lightning add is around 28% and the earth add is at about 35%. Wait for a shield on the earth add and burn it. When we did this, the earth add's shield broke and dropped him to 15%.

Needless to say, starting the last phase with the first two bosses under 20% and the next two at 27% and 15% will make a huge difference.
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Re: Twilight Ascendants (25 man)

Postby baleogthefierce » Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:15 am

Kerriodos wrote:Trying not to steal this topic from the OP, but figured this would be a better place to ask than making a new topic.

We had an issue with Ingacious's tank (myself) being gibbed by a combination of Flame Torrent and Hydro Lance at the same time. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to cooldown every Flame Torrent (I run out after only a few, even with Divine Protection), nor do I know if I can predict being hit by Hydro Lance. I'm assuming the problem here is simply gear--I'm the least geared of our tanks, having not won any raid drops yet--combined with my Mastery not affecting magic damage. Should we be having the DK or Druid tank handle Ignacious instead of me, or are we missing a mechanic here? I know I didn't have Waterlogged when I was hit by both, and one time even had a cooldown up and still fell over.

I can't help the OP, unfortunately, as I was sitting on our 10 man kill and 10 man experience may not help in this case. Sorry to steal your thread!


Hydro Lance can be interrupted iirc (preferably by ranged since they don't need to run in and out for glaciate).
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Re: Twilight Ascendants (25 man)

Postby inthedrops » Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:27 am

Kerriodos wrote:Trying not to steal this topic from the OP, but figured this would be a better place to ask than making a new topic.

We had an issue with Ingacious's tank (myself) being gibbed by a combination of Flame Torrent and Hydro Lance at the same time. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to cooldown every Flame Torrent (I run out after only a few, even with Divine Protection), nor do I know if I can predict being hit by Hydro Lance. I'm assuming the problem here is simply gear--I'm the least geared of our tanks, having not won any raid drops yet--combined with my Mastery not affecting magic damage. Should we be having the DK or Druid tank handle Ignacious instead of me, or are we missing a mechanic here? I know I didn't have Waterlogged when I was hit by both, and one time even had a cooldown up and still fell over.

I can't help the OP, unfortunately, as I was sitting on our 10 man kill and 10 man experience may not help in this case. Sorry to steal your thread!


This video might help. I'm doing the same role as you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFHBmc6jwus

The tank on Ignacious takes a lot more damage. Wear two stamina trinkets if you must. Divine protection is up for every Flame Torrent and should be saved for that. And if you're still dying then it's probably because the DPS is taking too long to break his shield. He gets stacks of a buff every time he casts his AoE while shielded. Once the shield is broke, he casts his Flame Torrent. Use Divine Protection right after his shield breaks and it'll be up again for the next one. The video shows pretty clearly what I'm doing with my cooldowns in P1.

Clarification Edit: Divine Protection is up for every Flame Torrent after the shield is broke.
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Re: Twilight Ascendants (25 man)

Postby Belloc » Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:10 am

Proper spreading of heart of ice will ensure that you're breaking the aegis quickly.
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Re: Twilight Ascendants (25 man)

Postby Kerriodos » Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:40 am

inthedrops wrote:The tank on Ignacious takes a lot more damage. Wear two stamina trinkets if you must. Divine protection is up for every Flame Torrent and should be saved for that. And if you're still dying then it's probably because the DPS is taking too long to break his shield. He gets stacks of a buff every time he casts his AoE while shielded. Once the shield is broke, he casts his Flame Torrent. Use Divine Protection right after his shield breaks and it'll be up again for the next one. The video shows pretty clearly what I'm doing with my cooldowns in P1.

Clarification Edit: Divine Protection is up for every Flame Torrent after the shield is broke.


Swapping to a second stamina trinket was exactly what I was thinking when I started taking too much damage. I have two blue ones, hopefully I can pick up one of the others this week. I had noticed the buff and was trying to save my cooldowns for right after, but I think I was getting hit with Hydro Lance because I would suddenly dip down and blow a cooldown on other Flame Torrents as a result to help healers. Someone had said that Hydro Lance wasn't interruptable, so I would assume people started ignoring it after that--clearly a mistake. The Flame Torrent was also hitting me a fair bit harder than you (in your video) so I imagine that's mostly the shield being up too long. This will help a lot, though, thank you very much!
Last edited by Kerriodos on Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Twilight Ascendants (25 man)

Postby inthedrops » Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:50 am

Yes, it hurts like hell with high stacks. As mentioned above, we even have our ranged switch over to break it down in a timely manner.
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