"Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Shoju » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:17 am

DADT when it first came about was a HUGE step in the right direction for it's time. Thankfully, after 17 years of societal changes, we realized that we aren't the crazy people we were then, and are moving on. The homophobia / Gay hate in America is incredibly strong :( Maybe one day we wont are so much about who someone else is shacking up with.
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Thalia » Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:15 pm

Arnock wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong (I very well may be) but aren't relationships between members of the same unit prohibited (or at least strongly discouraged) to prevent conflict of interest that might disrupt a unit's cohesion.

I was under the impression that don't ask don't tell was mainly implemented because separate male/female barracks helped prevent straight relationships, but it was a bit more of an issue bunking homosexuals.


But, again, I might be wrong about the relationship issue, so feel free to ignore this statement if I am.


My brother who is in the Air Force told me...most of the airforce girls he met he trained with where kinda um slutty and slept with many of their peers...so I think it's allowed as long as it's not your superior.
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Nikachelle » Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:23 pm

To point out the obvious: If the women are slutty, then so are the men.
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Aurelie » Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:45 pm

Thalia wrote:
Arnock wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong (I very well may be) but aren't relationships between members of the same unit prohibited (or at least strongly discouraged) to prevent conflict of interest that might disrupt a unit's cohesion.

I was under the impression that don't ask don't tell was mainly implemented because separate male/female barracks helped prevent straight relationships, but it was a bit more of an issue bunking homosexuals.


But, again, I might be wrong about the relationship issue, so feel free to ignore this statement if I am.


My brother who is in the Air Force told me...most of the airforce girls he met he trained with where kinda um slutty and slept with many of their peers...so I think it's allowed as long as it's not your superior.


Women in the service get a bad rap- deserved or not. They tend to be treated as objects rather than equals. I come from a military family and this has been echoed by many of my friends and family members.

Nikachelle wrote:To point out the obvious: If the women are slutty, then so are the men.


^ Also, this.
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Thalia » Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:14 pm

Nikachelle wrote:To point out the obvious: If the women are slutty, then so are the men.


I'm quoting my brother, so this is from the male's point of view, or I should say from his point of view.

And though he is not a sailor...from the stories he tells me those air force boys he hangs with seem to have a lot of girlfriends off base too :lol:
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Brekkie » Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:47 pm

My brother who is in the Air Force told me...most of the airforce girls he met he trained with where kinda um slutty and slept with many of their peers...so I think it's allowed as long as it's not your superior.


word.
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Torquemada » Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:08 am

Brekkie wrote:
My brother who is in the Air Force told me...most of the airforce girls he met he trained with where kinda um slutty and slept with many of their peers...so I think it's allowed as long as it's not your superior.


word.


In the Army, at least, it's called fraternization. The idea is that social relationships are not permitted to compromise the chain of command or the integrity of the rank structure. That means that you won't see Sergeants and officers out for drinks, and you damn sure better not see officers and Privates as pals or f*** buddies. That said, it still happens, far more than it ought to, but that doesn't mean it's supposed to. They're actually on a big kick of tightening down on it, as we had a First Sergeant who knocked up a Soldier in his unit, as well as a very intricate series of love triangles involving a junior Soldier, several Sergeants, and a few officers.

Even friendships are discouraged as they compromise good discipline and can lead to an air of favoritism. That doesn't mean that there is no socializing. For example, one of the sections here regularly goes on outings like to the zoo or amusement parks. Drinking isn't involved, though, and they're open invitation to everyone. It's more of a morale thing at that point than a clique of friends.

Relationships at work between folks of the same rank are tolerated, though when someone gets promoted over their spouse and would then fall into a supervisory role one or both of them are moved into different sections. Also, I knew a Lieutenant who was a Sergeant previously, and was married to his wife when they both were Sergeants. She became an officer first, and since their marriage existed prior to her promotion it was fine. Similarly, a friend of mine was a Sergeant while I was a Private in training, but I knew him from the time of high school.

As far as DADT, a lot of concern is with being quartered with folks who might "hit" on them. It may require a great bit of re-education on some Soldiers who are less tolerant than they ought to be, but I've shared tents(Large ones) where male and female Soldiers where sleeping in the same space, so it really ought not be an issue. I'm a bit ashamed to admit that at one point when I was younger and a good deal more religious I was against measures like this, but as I've grown older and developed what I hold to be common sense, I've become a lot more libertarian in my views. I welcome this change, and I hope that the servicemen and women who were put out honestly because they were gay and not as an excuse to ditch the military are given a shot to come back if they so choose.
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Fivelives » Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:02 am

The fraternization thing depends a lot on your MOS and the size of your units, too. I drove tanks - our platoon size was 16 - 4 tank crews of 4 people each, and the platoon sergeants and platoon leaders (NCOs and officers, respectively) were really close to their tank crews, and still pretty damn close and friendly with the rest of the platoon. That's not to say that discipline was lax, not at all. We respected and trusted our leadership, but working in close quarters (can't get much closer than the inside of a tank... it's about the size of a VW bug inside the turret, with a coffin attached for the driver) fosters friendships.

Hell, even our company commanders, and even on up to the battalion staff, formed those close working friendships. I used to go out drinking and whoring with my company chain of command, even before I got my promotion to sergeant.
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Nemi » Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:20 am

An article in the Army times mentioned that same sex couples would not be getting on base housing. Now there is no mention of them getting BAH (Basic Allowance for Housing aka Rent) to live off base. I'm wondering will all same sex couples be living off base with no option for on base housing?

As for the 'free money for no reason' mentioned earlier I assume you're speaking of dual BAH? I've never really understood that, as it costs just as much money if not more to be married to a "civilian" or non military member. At least the dual military couples both have a job that is transferrable to your next duty site.

On topic again.. I'm a part of a very very small crossection of the Army (2000 people in two MOS (jobs in the military) to include officers and warrant officers Army wide) and I've served with at least one homosexual Soldier at each of my four duty stations. I've not had any problems with their sexual preference, I have had issues with them getting out of the military because it was just too hard to hide who they were. Try falling in love with someone and being told you cannot be with that person because its against the law. That just dosent make sence to me.

There are going to be many issues that come up with this repeal of dont ask dont tell, many of which will take time to resolve. It is as said a good step but I'm wondering will it lead to segregation.
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:14 am

Nemi wrote:As for the 'free money for no reason' mentioned earlier I assume you're speaking of dual BAH? I've never really understood that, as it costs just as much money if not more to be married to a "civilian" or non military member. At least the dual military couples both have a job that is transferrable to your next duty site.


Both don't get BAH w/dependents rate... one person gets the standard rate and the other gets w/dependents rate. If you're married to a civ, you get the w/dependents rate. BAH is considered part of a military members paycheck (even though it's not a taxable part), which makes it seem like mil/mil are double dipping, whereas a civ has whatever income they receive from their employer, it's just not (usually) broken down into base pay/BAH/BAS/etc.

https://www.defensetravel.dod.mil/site/bah.cfm

Again though, whether any of this will apply to same-sex marriages will likely be determined if/when the federal gov approves the recognition of same-sex marriages (since most of the military falls under the fed gov; this may apply differently for state guard personnel) allowing all the other benefits/etc. of a regular marriage.
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Brekkie » Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:17 am

Given the budget, I doubt they will recognize same-sex unions monetarily, at least in the near future.

To me, it seems like all this repeal is going to ACTUALLY do is keep things exactly the same as they were before, but put a stop to the "OMG HE/SHE IS GAY, ADMIN SEPARATE THEM" witch hunts that sometimes would happen when commanders misunderstood the intent of the original DADT.
Honestly, I think that that is the ideal way forward. All that really needed fixing was giving legitimate service members protection from getting randomly kicked out if they were outed.
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Fivelives » Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:40 pm

And stopping random pogues from using it as a "get out of contract free" card.
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Doz » Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:54 am

Brekkie wrote:It will be interesting to see whether they incorporate same-sex couples into the present system of "give free extra money to married people for no reason".


So supporting your family while you are deployed, and or stationed away for months or years is no reason? Can a family of 4 live on the same pay that a single person can? Sounds to me that you were a little jealous/upset/butthurt that the married servicemen around you were making more than you. Military members make a very modest salary, and most junior enlisted with families are hovering around the poverty line. You think they shouldn't be helped out to feed thier families? They can't eat at the DF like single people for free, and certainly can't bring thier families. They can't live in barracks/dorms with thier families. So they get extra money for food/rent, or live in base housing. Think a bit.
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Brekkie » Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:07 pm

Lots of factual inaccuracies there.
So supporting your family while you are deployed, and or stationed away for months or years is no reason?

Being deployed or away does not make the income of that married man any lower. In fact it makes it significantly higher, with combat pay, hazardous duty pay, imminent danger pay, combat zone tax free exemption, (all of which the single service members get too), as well as separations pay (which the single service members don't).
If a junior rank military salary isn't enough to support a family, the dependent spouse needs to work. That is no different from any occupational field. You don't become the most junior burger flipper at McDonalds and expect to make enough money to support a family alone when you haven't even worked there for a couple years yet and haven't gotten promoted a couple times. Why would things work any different in the military from the way they work in the real world?
Can a family of 4 live on the same pay that a single person can?

No other occupational field discriminates by marital status or awards pay based on it. Not one. Not doctors, lawyers, dentists, musicians, or farmers.
Military members make a very modest salary, and most junior enlisted with families are hovering around the poverty line.

That's misleading, and presumably based merely on base pay, which doesn't take into account all the other factors on the statement of military compensation, such as free medical and dental care for self and unlimited number of dependents, $400k life insurance policy, etc.
They can't eat at the DF like single people for free, and certainly can't bring thier families. They can't live in barracks/dorms with thier families.

None of that stuff is free for single service members. All of it is paid for involuntarily, automatically deducted from pay, at a rate more than what it is worth for benefits received. A single service member pays almost a thousand dollars a month for a roach-infested 12 foot square room they have to share with up to 3 other people, and a bathroom they share with an additional 4, with no air conditioning and electricity only sometimes. I could find a better deal than that as an illegal immigrant in downtown Manhattan.

My issues with the policy are both philosophical and practical in nature. I have problems with the system because:

-It is fiscally irresponsible and represents a huge additional expenditure of money by the DoD, that was implemented in peace time during a strong economy as part of the drive to convert to an all-volunteer force. In times when men are dying on the front line because of lack of, and broken/outdated equipment, when disabled wounded veterans can't get medical care because we can't afford it, and when all military pay is getting frozen indefinitely and most bonus money disappeared, we can no longer afford the waste.

-Being allowed to marry at all is a privilege in the military, not a right. You sacrifice a lot of rights when you volunteer to serve, including big ones like freedom of speech, protection from search and seizure, and the right to privacy, because it is necessary to do so for a combat effective force to function. Within very recent living memory it required written dispensation from your commanding officer to be granted a license to get married. A generation with a sense of self-entitlement is now full of people outraged that the military isn't like a normal 9-5 civilian job. They joined cause the economy sucked and the free medical sounded pretty sweet, and forgot about the whole sacrifices part.

-Marriage is supposed to be serious business. If it's meant to be, it can wait until you pick up Sergeant. If it can't wait until then, you shouldn't be getting married. If you're as mature above your rank as is often claimed by those who want to get married as very junior enlisted, because you joined at a late age, or whatever, then you'll pick up rank rapidly anyway.

-A system should not be built around subsidizing bad judgment. If you can't afford to support an unemployed spouse, you can't afford it. Tough shit. If you can't afford to support 4 kids yet, you should wait to have kids and wrap your pecker. If you fail to exercise good judgment then you should bare the burden of the consequences because that's the real world, especially in this, the field that most requires and expects good judgment. If you can't demonstrate a basic level of maturity you need to find a different line of work.

-The job is hard. Particularly for the lowest ranks. It always will suck, because it's a sucky business. It has to suck in order to instill the qualities that will prepare those men for the real suck. Having an "out" other than self-advancement through merit is terrible for cohesion and morale. Special privileges for the married is abused far too often as the cowards way out, and it is the single men who pay the price in the added share of the burden. General Stan McChrystal was very popular for his policy when he was in charge of the Afghanistan theater that any female who got pregnant in theater would be immediately busted down to E-1 and processed for administrative separation from the military, along with the guy who slept with her, because pregnancy and the concessions granted for it's occurrence were driving widespread abuse by people trying to get out of deployments. Contract marriages or simply hasty, immature, rushed-into marriages, incentivized by free money and escape from the burdens the single men have to shoulder, are absolutely epidemic in the military. As a result, so are divorce rates and the life-long burden they place on those men's futures. For every 1 junior enlisted marriage that succeeds long term, 4 fail in divorce. Remove the artificial incentive to rush into marriage, and you alleviate this massive problem.


I know that there are plenty of people who disagree with me on this issue, and might say I'm motivated by jealousy or that I don't respect that families need support (in which case why isn't the spouse working/why don't you lower your standard of living to match your income instead of living beyond your means/why aren't you advocating an across-the-board pay raise for the military?). I can't intellectually bring myself to find the arguments I've heard in favor of higher pay based on dependents and unrestricted access to BAH persuasive, particularly in light of the many negative effects they cause in counterbalance to any positive aspect.
On a fundamental level, I am a capitalist. I believe that the answers to problems lies in working harder, that rewards come as a result of merit.
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That's how I feel about my military career. I joined and started at the bottom of the totem pole, and worked my way up to becoming a non commissioned officer assigned to one of the most important and competitive duty assignments in my branch of service. None of that was handed to me because I had needs.
It's simply a fundamental part of my world view. CEOs don't get paid millions of dollars per year because they have greater need for money to support themselves than blue collar workers. That's a welfare mentality. They get paid so much because they worked hard and had natural talent which brought them great success, often after many years of labor. You or I, too, could do the same thing.
The military is special because, more than any other sector, it does not discriminate. Everyone has the same opportunities. The system works the same. If you don't get promoted, if you don't get the opportunities you want, if you can't get the job you desire, that's not the fault of your location, race, birthright, or the tides of the economy, it's your own fault. Actions have consequences. If you don't like where you are at, go advance yourself out of it.


p.s. sorry to derail, but I think we'd stopped discussing DADT by now anyway.
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Re: "Dont Ask Dont Tell" Repealed

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:48 pm

Technically every job in the US provides more pay for more dependents because of our tax system. The more dependents you have the less income tax you pay, until you pay none. I'm not particularly a fan of that system, but it does exist. Of course that does mean that military members are already getting a slight bonus for dependents, though junior enlisted ranks with a few dependents would fall into the category of paying no income tax, so they'd cap out.

BAH/BAS is already factored into the cost. In fact it's probably cheaper to pay those benefits than to maintain dorms and on base housing, in fact I know for certain that it was on the old Fort Lewis (not sure now that it's joint, but I doubt it's changed), but there are benefits to those systems despite the cost. Also, if you have to do any traveling in the civilian world or work as a traveling type of contractor, you are going to be paid per diem, which is fairly equivocal to military members who are not provided base housing, and limited DF access.

That said there are plenty of people who are essentially getting free BAH/BAS, I was one of them when I was in the Air Force. I was living with my girlfriend without having been approved BAH, the day I got married I was automatically approved, but nothing about my living situation changed. It was free money for me. Of course, the military isn't and shouldn't be bothered with the burden of judging those situations for BAH qualification, and it would be on shaky ground to do so. There are lots of places the military (and the government at large) should be looking to decrease waste, benefits to military personnel who are already deeply undervalued in our society is probably not a great place to make much ground.
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