Eye for an Eye

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Eye for an Eye

Postby bomberaloca » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:32 pm

I am changing my spec to Eye for an Eye.
The purpose is generate agro to the casters.

What do you think?
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Re: Eye for an Eye

Postby d503 » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:37 pm

bomberaloca wrote:I am changing my spec to Eye for an Eye.
The purpose is generate agro to the casters.

What do you think?


Get a better threat talent, and have DPS CC Casters...that's what I do :)

Alternatively, make casters your Skull and X and hit them with AS to silence them.
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Re: Eye for an Eye

Postby Gaxby » Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:03 pm

The fact that 1) The damage has to be magical and 2) It's only a 40% chance to proc, makes it very situational compared to the all utility Improved Judgement which gives you better pulls/control over loose mobs.
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Re: Eye for an Eye

Postby Vort » Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:44 pm

Those 20 extra yards of imp judgement don't seem quite so useful when there is a Big Bad striking you back in melee. Even the usefulness of 20 extra yards in 5 man dungeons seems excessive. I've been using Eye for an Eye now since 85 and it works much better I've found. To be clear - Eye for an Eye does NOT just proc off of magical damage. Whether this is intended or a bug I'm unsure of (but probably a bug). You will get procs off of any (yet to see one it didn't proc from) "Special" attack mobs can do, regardless of whether it is physical damage or magical. I've had Eye proc from Cleaves, Shockwaves, and all sorts of PHYSICAL damage specials. A good example is Foe Reaper 5000's Reaper Strike (effectively a frontal cleave with a purely PHYSICAL component) Eye for an Eye WILL proc from this ability hitting you, his Overdrive ability also causes procs. The proc can crit, and it will cause roughly 400% threat from the damage returned.

It certainly is a choice matter whether you want the utility of the range on Judgements or the random threat return from Eye. I have made my choice and I honestly prefer Eye > Judgements.
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Re: Eye for an Eye

Postby Gaxby » Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:41 pm

Vort wrote:Those 20 extra yards of imp judgement don't seem quite so useful when there is a Big Bad striking you back in melee.


Those 30% extra damage of Eye for an Eye don't seem quite so useful when there are packs of adds swarming your healer in range.

Like I said with anything in tanking, it really depends on what you're up against. Improved Hammer of Justice for example wouldn't be in a standard tank spec, but on Heroic Lich King, a 6 second stun for every add that spawns is very powerful. However, does that mean every default tank spec should include Imp HoJ just because it worked so well for that specific fight?

Eye for an Eye and Improved Judgement both have their uses in different situations. The problem is that Improved Judgement applies to more situations than Eye for an Eye. Having said that, I do spec Eye for an Eye for certain fights where I know there are a lot of damage I can reflect. However with threat being a joke in the current meta-game and as long as I'm not in danger of hitting any Enrage timers, why bother?
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Re: Eye for an Eye

Postby theckhd » Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:20 am

Vort wrote:To be clear - Eye for an Eye does NOT just proc off of magical damage. Whether this is intended or a bug I'm unsure of (but probably a bug). You will get procs off of any (yet to see one it didn't proc from) "Special" attack mobs can do, regardless of whether it is physical damage or magical. I've had Eye proc from Cleaves, Shockwaves, and all sorts of PHYSICAL damage specials. A good example is Foe Reaper 5000's Reaper Strike (effectively a frontal cleave with a purely PHYSICAL component) Eye for an Eye WILL proc from this ability hitting you, his Overdrive ability also causes procs.



Do you have any logs I can examine that confirm this? I've never seen evidence that it procs off of physical damage (even specials).
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Re: Eye for an Eye

Postby Katie Lynn » Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:49 am

Español:
Yo usaría Improved Judgement en lo personal... Especialmente contra casters.

English:
I'd use Improved Judgement rather than Eye for an Eye... Specially against casters.
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Sorry for the bad English.
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Re: Eye for an Eye

Postby Vort » Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:58 pm

theckhd wrote:
Vort wrote:To be clear - Eye for an Eye does NOT just proc off of magical damage. Whether this is intended or a bug I'm unsure of (but probably a bug). You will get procs off of any (yet to see one it didn't proc from) "Special" attack mobs can do, regardless of whether it is physical damage or magical. I've had Eye proc from Cleaves, Shockwaves, and all sorts of PHYSICAL damage specials. A good example is Foe Reaper 5000's Reaper Strike (effectively a frontal cleave with a purely PHYSICAL component) Eye for an Eye WILL proc from this ability hitting you, his Overdrive ability also causes procs.



Do you have any logs I can examine that confirm this? I've never seen evidence that it procs off of physical damage (even specials).


No logs yet, I'll get some when I sort some business out and actually manage to log on.
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Re: Eye for an Eye

Postby agetro » Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:01 pm

Yea, Id personally have Judgement than Eye for an Eye. I've yet to have any problems, and I love having another ranged attack that 1) helps me hold threat while kiting. 2) picks up a loose add heading for another party member.
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Re: Eye for an Eye

Postby Vort » Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:29 am

Got a log for you Theck.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-n ... ?enc=trash
Shows my eye for an eye damage on the Evolved Drakonaar.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-n ... ?enc=trash
Shows I took 0 damage from the Shadow damage ability so it isn't proccing off that.

Hope you can work it out, because I sure as hell can't.
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Re: Eye for an Eye

Postby theckhd » Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:09 am

Filtering the log with (spell="Eye for an Eye" or sourceName="Evolved Drakonaar"):
Code: Select all
[20:40:22.375] Vortimosa Eye for an Eye Evolved Drakonaar 5639 (O: -1)
[20:40:22.375] Evolved Drakonaar Blade Tempest Vortimosa 13558 (O: -1)
[20:40:22.769] Evolved Drakonaar's Blade Tempest fades

[20:40:46.798] Vortimosa Eye for an Eye Evolved Drakonaar 4537 (O: -1)
[20:40:46.798] Evolved Drakonaar Blade Tempest Vortimosa 12409 (O: -1, A: 1405)

[20:41:10.887] Vortimosa Eye for an Eye Evolved Drakonaar 5400 (O: -1)
[20:41:10.889] Evolved Drakonaar Blade Tempest Vortimosa 17268 (O: -1)

[20:41:12.903] Vortimosa Eye for an Eye Evolved Drakonaar 4847 (O: -1)
[20:41:12.903] Evolved Drakonaar Blade Tempest Vortimosa 14548 (O: -1, A: 1426)

[20:41:58.257] Vortimosa Eye for an Eye Evolved Drakonaar 4808 (O: -1)
[20:41:58.257] Evolved Drakonaar Blade Tempest Vortimosa 15998 (O: -1)

[20:42:00.250] Evolved Drakonaar Blade Tempest Vortimosa 14224 (O: -1)
[20:42:00.585] Vortimosa Eye for an Eye Evolved Drakonaar *7484* (O: -1)

[20:42:24.307] Vortimosa Eye for an Eye Evolved Drakonaar 5792 (O: -1)
[20:42:24.307] Evolved Drakonaar Blade Tempest Vortimosa 12872 (O: -1, A: 1426)

[20:42:25.505] Evolved Drakonaar Blade Tempest Vortimosa 14507 (O: -1)
[20:42:26.313] Vortimosa Eye for an Eye Evolved Drakonaar 4842 (O: -1)
[20:42:27.127] Evolved Drakonaar hits Vortimosa Miss

[20:42:47.652] Evolved Drakonaar Blade Tempest Vortimosa 15395 (O: -1)
[20:42:47.991] Vortimosa Eye for an Eye Evolved Drakonaar 5016 (O: -1)
[20:42:48.447] Evolved Drakonaar Blade Tempest Vortimosa 15592 (O: -1)

[20:42:49.622] Evolved Drakonaar Blade Tempest Vortimosa 15989 (O: -1)
[20:42:50.390] Vortimosa Eye for an Eye Evolved Drakonaar 5337 (O: -1)
[20:42:51.197] Evolved Drakonaar hits Vortimosa 13077 (O: -1, B: 8718)


The last one is a little odd, in that the E4E proc lags the Blade Tempest by a bit, but it's still well before the following melee attack. It seems E4E can proc off of Blade Tempest. The value is right around 30% of the damage taken.

Since Blade Tempest is channeled, it's probably coded like a spell, and thus can trigger E4E even though it's physical damage. What this probably means is that E4E's tooltip is misleading; rather than triggering off of magical damage, it triggers off of damage caused by spells or spell-like abilities, regardless of what the damage type is.
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Re: Eye for an Eye

Postby Vort » Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:30 pm

Like I said I've seen it proc before from the Foe Reaper 5000 in Deadmines heroic. His standard cleave like ability (reap is the name I think) and his overdrive have also forced it to proc. Similar to the blade tempest - Overdrive is a channeled ability even though it is physical damage it is proccing eye.

But I agree, it is misleading and possibly even a bug.

Cheers Theck.
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Re: Eye for an Eye

Postby Flex » Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:14 am

I went 2/2 Eye for an Eye (one flex point and one from the crit tier 2 ret talent) and it accounts for about 1.5% to 2% of my damage in a run.
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Re: Eye for an Eye

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:21 am

I went Eye for an Eye, 2/2 for Nefarian because I just thought to myself DPS race, it worked surprisingly well. The only thing I lost to get it was 1 point of imp judgment, and the 1 point in ImP HoJ that I had.

I mean I thought we did pretty good :D.

It did a bit of damage. I mean 200k is nothing in comparison to the 6.8 M that casters do, but every little bit helps. I just think its situational it doesn't hurt to have some fights, but it definitely helps on others. I'd say ascendant for one. I mean just plenty actually.
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Re: Eye for an Eye

Postby AriKT » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:38 pm

I prefer Eye for an Eye also. Both Imp Judgement and Eye for and Eye are situational. You are basically using Judgement on cooldown in your rotation. Yes, you can change targets and judge that ranged mob, but you can do the same with Avenger's Shield. If you pull properly you can get the caster(s) to move from your silence. The only annoyances are hunter mobs that shoot from ranged, but they tend to be less dangerous shooting things so its not that big a deal. In most raid boss situations that Imp Judgement won't do much for you outside stacking some extra threat on the pull.
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Re: Eye for an Eye

Postby Chasey » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:42 pm

Intersting topic. I kinda like this talent and had it til just recently. Might be going back to it.


In most raid boss situations that Imp Judgement won't do much for you outside stacking some extra threat on the pull.


I just think its situational it doesn't hurt to have some fights, but it definitely helps on others.


^^ what I was thinking.
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Re: Eye for an Eye

Postby Vort » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:08 pm

Last week on Ascendant Council (Logs bugged >.<) My eye for an Eye did 100k damage on the Phase 3 Alone. I rarely find myself needing that extra range on my Judgement and usually just conserve my Avengers Shield for it if I need to range pull something.
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Re: Eye for an Eye

Postby inthedrops » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:50 am

I specced with this one night on Nef, and honestly I wasn't impressed with the damage at all. Maybe ~10 procs over an 8 to 10 minute fight. I won't be using it again any time soon.
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Re: Eye for an Eye

Postby eleventyseven » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:59 pm

I like Eye for an Eye. On fights like the aforementioned bugged Foe Reaper, it does a surprising amount of DPS...although I guess arguably I could also do more DPS on Foe Reaper if I could judge from range while he WW's around? :lol:
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Re: Eye for an Eye

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:47 pm

I really need to look at logs more often with this. For me basically I've got one point into imp judgment ( just for the utility), 1 point into Eye for an Eye, 3 into rule of law, and 1 into PoJ just so I can use 50 mastery to boots and still have run speed. Imma go to lavawalker though because really because that more damage >15 mastery imo.

I mean think of how many new fights there are currently with magic damage in firelands. I'm mainly thinking of baleroc with his 400k Shadow damage swings... either way I think the extra damage is worth it considering you aren't really giving up anything.
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Re: Eye for an Eye

Postby Scarzi » Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:17 pm

Eye for an eye is way better then judgement. What is the point of a 40 yard judgement when the boss is in your face and anything not...well there are 2 taunt buttons.

It proc's off ANY yellow ability(that means physical and magical damage)
Last time I checked, 38% dodge is better then stacking stamina.
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Re: Eye for an Eye

Postby Loras » Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:23 pm

Depends on the boss. If you're tanking Baleroc, sure, but Beth'tilac - so many targets you can use it for, or if you're top and jumping down, you can throw it on Beth still, you can help on drones, etc; Shannox - if you're tanking Riplimb, and he's running to the boss, or you're kiting Rip, you can always throw judgements. On Alysrazor you can throw so many judgements with her in the air or moving around (if hatchling is dead or not spawned), etc etc. And it applies a stack of censure too.
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Re: Eye for an Eye

Postby Treck » Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:04 pm

Loras wrote:Depends on the boss. If you're tanking Baleroc, sure

Eye for an Eye does NOT procc of anything Baleroc throws at you when tanking him.
It doesn NOT procc with decimation, or Inferno blade, would be kinda ok if it did, but it doesnt.
As for other fights, its pretty useless.

As for imp Judgement, it obviously doesnt have any use on Baleroc eather, but its very usefull to have for several other fights.
In pretty much every fight except Baleroc, imp judgement does have its uses.
But its more of a "judge from a distance to keep mana ticking up", rather than doing a tiny bit more damage.
Even so on a magic heavy fight, Eye for an Eye does not end up doing much damage.
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Re: Eye for an Eye

Postby Volitaire » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:42 am

I also prefer the E4E over the improved judgement. I do miss my improved judgement sometimes especially when my shield is on CD and I need to hit a quick ranged attack just to ensure I keep threat but it isn't anything that I can't usually fix with a thread.
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Re: Eye for an Eye

Postby Worldie » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:57 am

From my point of view, EfaE is, and should stay, as a DPS / PvP talent. Tanks are (in this tier at least) very rarely struck by direct magic damage. Baleroc attacks count as melee attacks, and that's why they don't proc EfaE.
Unless you are so lucky to be able to have 2 prot specs and allowed to swap from one to other depending on the needs, the utility of Improved Judgement is far superior.

If you were a DPS, on the other hand, it's definitively one of the best talents to put points into. I'm taking such stupid amounts of damage in some fights that Eye procs almost once every 10 seconds or so, providing a substantial DPS amount.
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