Spec Decision, 2 points left.

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Spec Decision, 2 points left.

Postby Gavel » Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:59 am

I'm trying to decide where to place the last 2 points in this potential spec. My primary focus is going to be on 5 man content for the time being and I am a bit torn about where to spend the points.

Here's what I've got so far:
http://wowtal.com/#k=-e4zgshw.a8t.paladin.

With 2 points to go the clear options are:
1. Pursuit of Justice - Movement speed is less important to me now that I'm nearly done leveling. Improved Judgement means I don't have to chase loose mobs much either. The free HoPo when stunned/feared/snared seems decent. I don't move around a whole lot in 5 mans while tanking things so I'm probably snared more often that I realize.

2. Seals of the Pure - I've had this talent while leveling. Not much to report. Single target threat seems good already. Seals don't seem to comprise much of my total damage in a 5 man though. Maybe this will change in heroics where CC is more prevalent. I've been AoE tanking normals without issue.

3. Arbiter of the Light - 12% more crit on Crusader Strike seems nice for snapping threat on a single target. I suspect this yields more DPS/TPS than Seals of the Pure, but definitely subject to RNG.

4. The rest of them. Hallowed Ground, Eye for an Eye, Guardian's Favor, none look like worthwhile spends.

So which would you choose? One of the above? Something totally different? 1 point in Divine Guardian + something else?
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Re: Spec Decision, 2 points left.

Postby Gaxby » Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:14 am

Gavel wrote:I don't move around a whole lot in 5 mans while tanking things so I'm probably snared more often that I realize.


What 5 mans have you been doing? Movement is absolutely crucial when moving bosses or picking up adds. Not to mention since you did take both EG and GotL, you mind as well take two points in Pursuit of Justice for the extra Holy Power generation for WoG.

SotP sucks as much as Arbiter of the Light and Hallowed Grounds since all three are our lowest DPS/TPS talents. And you have your facts wrong about AotL: It doesn't increase your CS crit chance at all, just your judgement when you're Prot.

If you're not doing Raids, you might be able to pass up 20% Raid Wall, but with the increase in dungeon difficulty, I find uses for Divine Sacrifice to save those PuGs who stand in fire and who all have the average IQ of an aborted fetus. :roll:
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Re: Spec Decision, 2 points left.

Postby Gavel » Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:31 am

Gaxby wrote:SotP sucks as much as Arbiter of the Light and Hallowed Grounds since all three are our lowest DPS/TPS talents. And you have your facts wrong about AotL: It doesn't increase your CS crit chance at all, just your judgement when you're Prot.


You're absolutely right, my mistake there. Would make no sense to have two crit-centric talents like Rule of Law and AotL modify the same abilities. In retrospect, extra crit on Judgement definitely feels lackluster.

Gaxby wrote:If you're not doing Raids, you might be able to pass up 20% Raid Wall, but with the increase in dungeon difficulty, I find uses for Divine Sacrifice to save those PuGs who stand in fire and who all have the average IQ of an aborted fetus. :roll:


I can definitely see the value in the extra clicky Divine Sacrifice, even though at best it just frees up slightly more healer mana for the tank. If I spend a point here, any recommendation about where the final point should go? Should I rob a point from something like Grand Crusader to get 2/2 PoJ?
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Re: Spec Decision, 2 points left.

Postby theckhd » Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:37 pm

Gaxby wrote:SotP sucks as much as Arbiter of the Light and Hallowed Grounds since all three are our lowest DPS/TPS talents.

Actually, it's not. Seals of the Pure is a pretty decent threat talent.
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Re: Spec Decision, 2 points left.

Postby econ21 » Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:30 am

I would go for pursuit of justice. Many boss fights seem to involve some movement. Seals is a threat increase, but threat in 5-mans seems absolutely a non-issue. I am starting to heal tank more and more - switching to seal of insight and WoG mid-fight, using mending on weapon etc. The only time a dps came close to me on threat on a boss, I realised I had forgotten Righteous Fury.

That said, I have not been able to let go of Hallowed Ground either and do think it is useful for 5-man trash. The only difference of my spec from yours is I dropped Grand Crusader. Sticking to the 939 rotation, it really did not seem to give me much as, if I understand it right, procs should have to wait for HoPo generators and finishers. Procs are fun, but HG allows me to spam consecrate, which is also fun for me.
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Re: Spec Decision, 2 points left.

Postby Gaxby » Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:24 am

theckhd wrote:
Gaxby wrote:SotP sucks as much as Arbiter of the Light and Hallowed Grounds since all three are our lowest DPS/TPS talents.

Actually, it's not. Seals of the Pure is a pretty decent threat talent.


My bad. I always confuse Seals of the Pure with Judgement of the Pure. Blah!

Anyways, Theck's right. It's higher than Grand Crusader for sure, but it's still behind Crusade and RoL.

Gavel wrote:I can definitely see the value in the extra clicky Divine Sacrifice, even though at best it just frees up slightly more healer mana for the tank. If I spend a point here, any recommendation about where the final point should go? Should I rob a point from something like Grand Crusader to get 2/2 PoJ?


This is the all purposeful spec that I use: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#sZhrhcRddRRucbr. It's a cookie-cutter WoG spec, but I moved 1 point from RoL into GC. I really like this spec, and yes I know that RoL > GC in single target, but GC > RoL in AoE.

theckhd wrote:GC's one saving grace is that it's great for AoE rotations. Tripling its damage output makes it good even when constrained to 939; pushing it above Judgement in the queue should be an even greater DPS increase.


Plus, the interrupt helps against those annoying caster adds and Holy Wrath/Consecration costs too much mana (assuming no Hallowed Grounds).

But hey if you don't like GC, just move the 1 point from GC in my spec back into RoL for a standard 31/10 WoG build. :)

EDIT: 31/10 cookie-cutter WoG build: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#sZhrhcRdkRRucbG
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Re: Spec Decision, 2 points left.

Postby theckhd » Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:39 am

Another thing I'm starting to realize about Grand Crusader is how potent it is defensively. In heroics especially, having a three-target interrupt available every few GCDs can prevent a lot of damage simply by accident. It is contingent on tanking spellcasting mobs, of course, but those are pretty plentiful in Cataclysm instances.

I've also managed to pull off some clutch interrupts on Ascendant Council with AS to prevent 50k damage to random targets, so there's even a potential benefit in raids.

That said, I'm still running only 1/2. The extra 5% crit on WoG from the last point in RoL is a little more reliable. But I could see dropping a point from Reckoning for GrC under certain circumstances (chain-running Heroics, for example).
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Re: Spec Decision, 2 points left.

Postby Gaxby » Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:43 pm

theckhd wrote:Another thing I'm starting to realize about Grand Crusader is how potent it is defensively. In heroics especially, having a three-target interrupt available every few GCDs can prevent a lot of damage simply by accident. It is contingent on tanking spellcasting mobs, of course, but those are pretty plentiful in Cataclysm instances.

I've also managed to pull off some clutch interrupts on Ascendant Council with AS to prevent 50k damage to random targets, so there's even a potential benefit in raids.

That said, I'm still running only 1/2. The extra 5% crit on WoG from the last point in RoL is a little more reliable. But I could see dropping a point from Reckoning for GrC under certain circumstances (chain-running Heroics, for example).


I'm starting to realize that too. I might now try the 31/10 with 1/2 in Reckoning and 2/2 in GC. I agree with the 5% crit on WoG: if I took 2/2 EG, 2/2 GbtL, DS, 2/2 Pursuit of Justice, for max survival, I mind as well get the final point in RoL since Survivability out-values DPS/Threat in a WoG build.

That said, the final point between maxing Reckoning or maxing GC: mathematically +10% Reckoning > +10% GC both Single and AoE, but practically for a WoG build GC is better "defensively". But since my other tank spec has 2/2 Reckoning, I mind as well have 2/2 in GC and 1/2 in Reckoning for my WoG spec.
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Re: Spec Decision, 2 points left.

Postby Gavel » Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:36 pm

theckhd wrote:Another thing I'm starting to realize about Grand Crusader is how potent it is defensively.


GC is fantastic if you extrapolate beyond the pure TPS numbers you potentially lose by speccing into it. What isn't clear at first look is how much threat is actually lost by having a caster standing just out of reach of your normal AoE abilities nuking you or the healer. What I've found is in these situations I end up burning Judgement on the ranged mob to keep him interested in me instead of the healer - which also means that I'm not reducing the attack speed of the mobs beating me to death with melee.

I absolutely love the GC proc when it comes to getting casters in range. In a PuG-tank's world where the classes who have interrupts rarely use them and CC is still not a familiar concept, being able to silence mobs and bring them into the kill-zone is supremely useful. (since nobody else is going to do it)

When you graduate to being able to run with a set group of competent folks then proc-driven abilities like GC are probably less helpful when you can rely on another class to handle the interrupts while you focus on threat and minimizing damage taken.
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