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New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby inthedrops » Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:33 pm

I haven't done 10 man raids, but I'm doing 25. So far the only scary boss as far as tank hits go is the Storm Drake add in Halfus Wyrmbreaker. Stamina seemed really important there just because it hits so darn hard. More than the boss it seems, but I didn't actually look at the parses.

I think I concur that once you're in nearly full heroic dungeon gear, that gemming mastery is a good approach....for heroics. And it's ok on the 4 or 5 bosses I've tried. But I am not ready to devalue stamina just yet :)

Btw, unbuffed I'm at 136k health if that gives you a sense for things (two mastery trinkets but only because I've been unlucky with a stamina trinket dropping for me)
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:38 pm

Juugimus wrote:I've been seeing similar things. In heroics it seems like my health stays somewhere in the middle of empty and full - until the healer goes OOM.

In fact healers going OOM have lead to many more wipes than me just being pummeled by damage. I'm thinking of switching out PoJ and picking up some WoG talents as well as switching to some mastery gems.


I highly recommend picking up the Glory talents. I've soloed or self-healed more than half a dozen bosses from 30% to dead in the last two days. It is utterfucking ridiculous.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby Meloree » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:15 pm

Too soon, Executus. It is too soon to have this discussion.

I haven't read the whole thread, I'll admit, but it's too early to even have any evidence with which to discuss this. 5-man heroics aren't evidence - they're basically trivial to begin with. They started out easy-but-long with 277 gear, and they're AoE-zerg-fests in 346 gear. Is mitigation/avoidance superior in heroics? Absolutely. It was in Wrath, too, but it didn't matter then, either.

Normal mode raids are unlikely to be EH checks - everyone knew that going in. Nobody has done a heroic on live - we don't know what the EH requirements are going to be, we don't know what the throughput damage is going to be like - we can't make conclusions yet, we can't even make educated guesses.

Patience. The real content is coming, we can talk about it when we have something to talk about.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby Flex » Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:02 am

The fact that WoG builds for both self healing and group healing is "the best" tells me the state of healers is very broken.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby Ryyu » Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:31 am

Will we be needing an more than 150k for heroic raids? I've heard some of the magical attacks can get quite spikey.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby Veshzan » Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:50 am

http://www.wowhead.com/talent#sZGrhcRddkRucbR This has been my build since the 2nd heroic i ran, i kinda saw that WoG was a very useful tool to have when healers r running oom it has enabled me to tank bosses without healers (some for the entire fight) with seal of insight + CD's.


I will tell you this its VERY helpful specially with the not so great healers in heroics. It is also very useful for helping heal yourself when tanking adds in raids or even the boss when it gets down to the bone.


The Mastery vs Stam question is a good one. What i have noticed so far is that raid gear doesn't appear to have alot of mastery on it. So when it gets to the raid geared epic stage i believe it may be us socketing more for mastery then anything.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby theckhd » Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:55 am

Mel's right, you can't base gemming decisions on heroic 5-mans, unless that is your end-game. Raid bosses can hit for 40-60k unblocked, and healers are having a hell of a time. We're definitely far away from the "stack Stam and nothing else" strategy, but even normal-mode instances should be enough to convince you that we're no closer to "stack nothing but mastery."

You still need a good balance of EH and mitigation/avoidance. My gemming strategy so far has been Stam in blue, parry/stam in red, mastery/stam in yellow. Mastery is such a beastly good stat that once I feel I have enough hit points, those yellow slots may go full mastery. But since there are still bosses that can kill me in 3-4 hits, I'm not there yet.

d503 wrote:The minute I saw the damage in heroics, I went back and respec'd to a WoG-centric build. I've found more success in keeping the raid functioning by sniping near-death heals with WoG, and threat is comfortable enough at this point to drop things like JotP and 3/3 Rule of Law.


If you're speccing a WoG-centric buld, why on earth would you drop a talent that gives it 15% crit?
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby sculder » Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:22 pm

Ryyu wrote:Will we be needing an more than 150k for heroic raids? I've heard some of the magical attacks can get quite spikey.


Unless you want your healers to have a heart attack, then yes. I've got a little over 160k buffed right now with one mastery trinket, and I can already tell I need more stam to be comfortable with the possibility of losing healers to fight mechanic deaths in HC.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby Digren » Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:23 pm

What we need to know comes from the raid environment.

A typical player in a T11 raid has a baseline of:

H hit points
A avoidance percentage (parry, dodge, miss)
B block percentage

Then for a given encounter the most likely kill scenario consists of:

X damage from physical blockable sources
Y damage from physical unblockable sources
Z damage from magical sources

Given this scenario, assuming a person had the opportunity to add either, say +300 stamina or +200 mastery rating, which option would allow the player to finish the former kill scenario with more remaining health?

Obviously this varies by encounter, and even by kill scenarios within an encounter.

In the status quo [H - Y - Z = X], because the damage required to kill you equals your health. If you increase your health by 4200, you increase the amount of damage you can absorb by 4200. (Need to correct stamina -> health conversion) So where as your remaining health at the end was zero [H - Y - Z - X = 0], your new health [H' - Y - Z - X = 4200].

Let T represent the worst-case physical damage assuming no avoidance or blocks. In the average scenario, [X = T x A x 0 + T x B x 0.6 + T x (1 - A - B)]. Or [X = T x (1 - A - 0.4B)]. 200 mastery rating increases your block chance by 2.51%. In other words, [X' = T x (B + 0.0251) x 0.6 + T x (1 - A - B - 0.0251)]. Or [X' = T x (0.98996 - A - 0.4B)].

Which is larger? [H' - Y - Z - X] or [H - Y - Z - X']?
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby Malthrax » Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:58 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:
Juugimus wrote:I've been seeing similar things. In heroics it seems like my health stays somewhere in the middle of empty and full - until the healer goes OOM.

In fact healers going OOM have lead to many more wipes than me just being pummeled by damage. I'm thinking of switching out PoJ and picking up some WoG talents as well as switching to some mastery gems.


I highly recommend picking up the Glory talents. I've soloed or self-healed more than half a dozen bosses from 30% to dead in the last two days. It is utterfucking ridiculous.


Heh... I tank-healed as a Retribution-spec Paly through the last 2/3's of Isiset after our healer DC'd.

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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby Neokoros » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:48 pm

sculder wrote:
Ryyu wrote:Will we be needing an more than 150k for heroic raids? I've heard some of the magical attacks can get quite spikey.


Unless you want your healers to have a heart attack, then yes. I've got a little over 160k buffed right now with one mastery trinket, and I can already tell I need more stam to be comfortable with the possibility of losing healers to fight mechanic deaths in HC.

What is going to help you more in this situation: being able to block more/take less damage (b/c of Mastery) or take more damage but have more health (b/c of Stamina)? I would assume Mastery to be more helpful in this situation, and even more helpful in situations where the healer doesn't die but just runs OOM. Why? Take less damage, healers need to heal less, run out of mana further down the line vs. having a shit load of HP but take a shit load of damage and healers burn through mana much more quickly trying to keep you up.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby Meloree » Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:30 pm

Neokoros wrote:What is going to help you more in this situation: being able to block more/take less damage (b/c of Mastery) or take more damage but have more health (b/c of Stamina)? I would assume Mastery to be more helpful in this situation, and even more helpful in situations where the healer doesn't die but just runs OOM. Why? Take less damage, healers need to heal less, run out of mana further down the line vs. having a shit load of HP but take a shit load of damage and healers burn through mana much more quickly trying to keep you up.


I can't believe this discussion is still going. Here's the other side of that coin:

Stamina is a mana-saving statistic. It allows healers to continue to cast efficient heals for longer, since there's a larger window of reaction time, and more has to go wrong for them to be required to ramp up. It does not directly contribute to "being a mana sponge tank". Requiring more healing does not directly translate to requiring more mana to heal. The evidence isn't in on which gearing path will be better at saving mana.

There will be a burst window in heroic content. We don't know what that is yet. It is likely to be higher in 25-mans than it is in 10-mans because there are more healers and more cooldowns available. This is everything we know so far. All of the gearing options are fully understood. It is simply not known what course will be optimal. That will be proven out in time, and may well be different for 10-mans and 25-mans. It is fully understood that this expansion has the POTENTIAL to reward total damage reduction more than the last expansion. We await encounter design to prove it.

This discussion is pointless. It contributes nothing. The optimal gearing strategy, boss by boss, will be decided by examining parses, not handwaving. Remember, too, that we're typically talking about marginal gains in one direction or another. Aside from trinkets, the gear will be essentially the same, whether you're aiming for TDR or EH/Mitigation gearing strategies. The gemming, enchanting, and trinkets are all that will change. We're talking about ~1000 stamina for ~650 rating from one extreme to the other. That's not a whole hell of a lot in the context of Cataclysm ilvls. It's never going to be "a ton of health" vs "a ton of avoidance".

Wait for the evidence. Discuss when parses are in hand.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby econ21 » Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:44 am

Meloree wrote:5-man heroics aren't evidence - they're basically trivial to begin with. They started out easy-but-long with 277 gear, and they're AoE-zerg-fests in 346 gear.


5-man heroics are trivial for you. I suspect for most WoW players they are extremely challenging. The game has been out for little over a week. Most L85s are still learning the boss tactics while barely making the 329 ilevel gear requirement.

This discussion is pointless. It contributes nothing.


But we are getting our new L85 gear, gemming and enchanting it now, so discussing how to do it has a point for most of us.

Is mitigation/avoidance superior in heroics? Absolutely.


That seems to be the consensus I am picking up from reading.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby theckhd » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:45 am

econ21 wrote:
This discussion is pointless. It contributes nothing.


But we are getting our new L85 gear, gemming and enchanting it now, so discussing how to do it has a point for most of us.

Is mitigation/avoidance superior in heroics? Absolutely.


That seems to be the consensus I am picking up from reading.


However, there's nothing new in this discussion. To anyone reading this forum, it should be painfully obvious that when you have 150k hit points and the boss is hitting you for 10-20k at most, avoidance/mitigation stats will be far more valuable than EH (stam). This is AT&C after all, not Basic Training.

It should also be obvious that you don't build a theory of anything around that level of content and expect it to be remotely relevant in raid-level content. Until we have details and parses, the best we can do is speculate.

In general, you don't build a theory of gemming around heroics at all. You build it around the hardest content available, because that's where it actually matters. Nobody gives a shit about server first Heroic Deadmines.

That's not to say you can't discuss how to best gem for heroic 5-man content, but that's not Advanced Theorycrafting, no less a new theory on gemming. That's "2009 called and wants to remind you how to gem your welfare T9 epics for chain-running heroics." If you want to continue that discussion, it would be better suited to the Gear Discussion forum, not here.
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Re: New Theory of Gemming - Stamina vs. Mastery

Postby econ21 » Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:52 am

theckhd wrote:However, there's nothing new in this discussion. To anyone reading this forum, it should be painfully obvious that when you have 150k hit points and the boss is hitting you for 10-20k at most, avoidance/mitigation stats will be far more valuable than EH (stam).


Well, it may be painfully obvious to you. It is new to most tanks like me who are habituated to stacking stamina from wotlk. At L85, I just gemmed stamina and mixed stamina out of habit. Today, the bottomline I take from you and Meloree is (a) avoidance/mitigation > EH for 5-mans; (b) we don't yet know about raids. That suggests Stage 1 (new L85) and Stage 2 (pre-heroic) tanks should go mastery/avoidance not EH. Stage 3 (pre-raid) and 4 (raid) can do what they like. There is some value in that for me at least. It is not yet in Digren's guides, for example.

If you want to continue that discussion, it would be better suited to the Gear Discussion forum, not here.


You may be right - this discussion might be best in Digren's item enhancement guide. I did not start this thread but came here as when this topic did come up in the gear discussion thread, this thread was linked to as the providing the best discussion.

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In general, you don't build a theory of gemming around heroics at all. ... Nobody gives a shit about server first Heroic Deadmines.


It's that kind of disparaging comment that made me post here in reaction to Meloree. Forget the "server first", I suspect most tanks playing WoW are currently concerned about just completing Heroic Deadmines: my guild celebrated our first heroic clear two days ago. Of course, you focus your theorising on the content you run but others are interested in the content they are running.
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