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Libram of Zeal vs. Libram of Divine Purpose, wasted badges

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Postby corc » Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:35 pm

This thread is pretty funny... I actually read it all :P

At first I thought it was just something to skim through then it got really interesting, but not about the OP topic O.o

Here's my opinion though on Libram-Twisting... coming from someone who can't use SoB cause I'm a sexy dwarf and topping damage/dps charts I wouldn't want my judgement to add a GCD. What with the changed CD on crusader strike I've got less time to work with to keep judge/seal/CS going without missing a proc. Hitting without a seal is bad as well as waiting to judge is. (adding ~1s to judges will decrease judge dps by ~10%)

If you are min/maxing you want to avoid complications. A paladin tank shouldn't really have a problem with threat anyway so just let the Retnoob have fun and not worry about you and continue to stare at Omen and Recount :D
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:23 pm

Joanadark wrote:
That is incorrect, the Macros do not stop. That second macro will actually work sometimes and sometimes not. When it doesn't work though, you'll get an error saying "You can't do that yet" meaning it didn't stop, it just couldn't execute the judgment. Macros have a timing problem because they are executed asynchronously, meaning they don't wait for a command to finish before continuing to the next. The reason that macro sometimes doesn't judge, is because it executes so quickly that you actually haven't sealed yet as far as the server is concerned.


Are you sure about this?

My understanding has always been that stopping macros was the entire purpose for the EXISTANCE of the global cooldown.
The reasoning being that without such functionality it would be perfectly possible to create massive super-macros to execute a "bot" to play your character for you.
Additionally, once could overcome the limits of human reaction time by simply stringing together massive sequences of actions allowing a character to accomplish things that would not be possible by a player simply hitting their own buttons, which would be clearly game-breaking and unbalanced.

Now, granted, I havn't utilized any macros that would attempt to break through the "GCD actions stop the macro" understanding, because thats what I've always believed was the case.
If I am incorrect though, could you direct me to where you got your own information?


Sorry Joana I missed this post. Yes, I'm 100% certain. In fact I can get the macro that seals and judges on one button push (the one you posted)to work. If you already have a seal running when you press it, then it should work both judging and casting the new seal.

You are right about the intent of the GCD though, and it does stop you from using two spells that cause a GCD in the same macro. It will try to cast them both, the GCD just stops the second one.

Equipping a libram (and weapons/shields I'd guess) is a bit unique though in that it causes a GCD, but it is not stopped by a GCD. Because of that, you can cast a spell that causes a GCD and follow that up with equipping the libram in the same macro, and no new GCD will be generated.

I don't have a source for this info, but it's easy enough to test casting a seal and equpping a libram in the same macro. The asynchronous stuff I just know about from my own development history and some of my own playing around with the LUA in WoW.
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Postby Jikozani » Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:29 pm

Wow, now that's a thread completely off topic.

Concerning the topic itself, I am interested in two things and I haven't done the math for them;

How would divine purpose compare to zeal if you judge crusader but are not spamming consecration? What if no holy shield either? (thrash tanking)
How would the two librams compare in both a case of max spamming everything and mere SoR & JoR - with crusader judged of course - when a windfury totem is down?

(it would be even more interesting to take into account things like the t4 set bonus and heck, even improved sor from talents. but I guess it would be too much hassle).
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Postby Blaen99 » Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:32 pm

Jikozani wrote:Wow, now that's a thread completely off topic.

Concerning the topic itself, I am interested in two things and I haven't done the math for them;

How would divine purpose compare to zeal if you judge crusader but are not spamming consecration? What if no holy shield either? (thrash tanking)
How would the two librams compare in both a case of max spamming everything and mere SoR & JoR - with crusader judged of course - when a windfury totem is down?

(it would be even more interesting to take into account things like the t4 set bonus and heck, even improved sor from talents. but I guess it would be too much hassle).


If there's no consecrate, Divine Purpose is better. The OP makes it fairly clear.

It's 16 spell damage in the DP's favor vs. Zeal. There's no real computation necessary ;).

corc wrote:This thread is pretty funny... I actually read it all :P

At first I thought it was just something to skim through then it got really interesting, but not about the OP topic O.o

Here's my opinion though on Libram-Twisting... coming from someone who can't use SoB cause I'm a sexy dwarf and topping damage/dps charts I wouldn't want my judgement to add a GCD. What with the changed CD on crusader strike I've got less time to work with to keep judge/seal/CS going without missing a proc. Hitting without a seal is bad as well as waiting to judge is. (adding ~1s to judges will decrease judge dps by ~10%)

If you are min/maxing you want to avoid complications. A paladin tank shouldn't really have a problem with threat anyway so just let the Retnoob have fun and not worry about you and continue to stare at Omen and Recount :D


http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... php?t=4625
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Postby Blaen99 » Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:46 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:
Invisusira wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:And the first sentence in this quote is final and definitive proof this is nothing but a troll.

?

All I see is you jumping down his throat for misreading your post...



Blaen99: Kind sir, I think you misread my post. I said a 7.405 TPS advantage.
Fridmarr: I see! I was quite mistaken, my good man.
Blaen99: Perfectly understandable.
Fridmarr: Tea and crumpets?
Blaen99: Please.


Closer to "The OP was a comparison between the Libram of Divine Judgement and the Libram of Zeal"

Then said person turned those numbers into an argument against using Libram of Zeal vs. no libram to boost threat.

Apples and oranges, Invis.


Stop lying. You jumped down my throat when I said it would cause a GCD for the Ret pally. Which is really all that I had said to that point, and it is 100% correct. You will also have unsealed hits, about 1 every 3rd or 4th judgment. I didn't crap on your thread, I read it because it was about a libram in which I have more than a passing interest.

You can call me names all you want, that doesn't make it true. I've actually read your OP several times, it is ambigous to say the least. Since it seems I did read it wrong, I apologize for that, and the data may in fact warrant the libram swapping.


Requested that Dorvan delete all of your posts and any of my posts that are referring to you to clean up this thread.

The thread does have relevance - however, you don't seem to understand that distorting other posters statements - whether intentionally or unintentionally - by definition would classify a troll.

Feel free to delete this post too when you get to it, Dorvan.
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Postby Jikozani » Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:51 pm

If there's no consecrate, Divine Purpose is better. The OP makes it fairly clear.

It's 16 spell damage in the DP's favor vs. Zeal. There's no real computation necessary ;).


Yea, well if there's no consecrate there's still holy shield. I guess it was pretty dumb to ask how they compare without the latter.
And it 'd still be interesting to compare the two when extra attacks come into play (windfury, reckoning) or effects that boost SoR/JoR damage.

All in all I do believe the badge libram is a fine piece for thrash that goes down quick.
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Postby Blaen99 » Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:53 pm

Jikozani wrote:
If there's no consecrate, Divine Purpose is better. The OP makes it fairly clear.

It's 16 spell damage in the DP's favor vs. Zeal. There's no real computation necessary ;).


Yea, well if there's no consecrate there's still holy shield. I guess it was pretty dumb to ask how they compare without the latter.
And it 'd still be interesting to compare the two when extra attacks come into play (windfury, reckoning) or effects that boost SoR/JoR damage.

All in all I do believe the badge libram is a fine piece for thrash that goes down quick, or if for some case you wish to judge something other than crusader.


The badge libram is better in all cases that only involve SoR/JoR and HS.

If you throw in exorcism, they are roughly equal. If you throw in consecrate*, the zeal pulls away by a fair margin.

*:Consecrate has the best TPS scaling of all of our abilities. SoR is a fairly crappy scaler really - 9.2% TPS gains per spell damage. Even with reckoning, windfury, etc., it's still not very good TBH. SoR benefits more from things such as pure % modifiers, such as the T4 2-piece, then +damage IMO.
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