[Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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[Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Dakiros » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:09 am

I was loving my pally again, having come back to him as my main after a few affairs with a dk, rogue, and lock. And then I hit 81 and got Inquisition, the reason our DPS got nerfed so hard. What a terrible mechanic! Too clunky, too long of a ramp up, and too short in duration to use on anything but bosses and even then it's such a PITA to keep going I'm back to not wanting to play him at all. They removed Hunger For Blood from assassination rogues because the ability wasn't fun and then they give us Inq which is even worse? (for those that don't know HFB was a 60 sec damage buff that required a bleed on the target, not difficult at all to keep up) Maybe it wouldn't be bad at a longer duration but as it is now it's killing my paladin for me. Am I alone here?
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby rodos » Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:51 pm

I haven't run a dungeon since I got it, so I'm not sure yet, but it certainly sounds like a pain. I don't use it at all solo.

I can see it being a useful way to dump HoPo in an AoE situation, since it will boost Conc and HW, but for AoE you want to use DS instead of CS, so you're kinda screwed.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Haberjinx » Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:31 am

Its the ability I only use when AW and Zealotry are on cooldown. Not much of a DPS increase at all. I could be wrong or just not seeing it.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Amirya » Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:10 pm

Haven't liked Ret for a bit, so haven't used it much.

Tried it once on my Prot set, I forget I have it.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby sherck » Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:46 pm

Haberjinx wrote:Its the ability I only use when AW and Zealotry are on cooldown. Not much of a DPS increase at all. I could be wrong or just not seeing it.


I guess the thing I like about it is that it is a nice Holy Power dump that is useful when nothing else is very useful.

Mob is almost dead (or perhaps even in HoW health range) so another TV is pretty much wasted. Your 300% Holy Light is going to get you back to full health after combat so WoG is pretty much wasted. The next mob is staring you in the face 30 yards away so you will be back in combat within 30 seconds. Sure, I could save it for an early TV on the next mob or boost all my holy damage on that next mob. I think of it as a nice either/or choice.

I am typically saving my AW and Zealotry for the quest mobs or when I pull multiples so it is a nice, no CD DPS increase using Holy Power that might otherwise decay.

I don't love it but I don't hate it either.

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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Kelaan » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:22 pm

sherck wrote:Mob is almost dead (or perhaps even in HoW health range) so another TV is pretty much wasted.... Sure, I could save it for an early TV on the next mob or boost all my holy damage on that next mob. I think of it as a nice either/or choice.


I prefer to save it for the next mob, honestly -- and will even overcap my holy power by finishing the current mob off with a non-finisher if it means I can lead off on the next mob with a 3HP Verdict. That said, you still have a really good point: it's very flexible. Maybe the next pack is a bunch of trash that you want to use Divine Storms on.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby rodos » Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:50 pm

With the seal nerfs, I think Ret just doesn't do anywhere near as much holy damage as it used to. Cons I hardly ever use (huge mana drain), and HW hits like a wet noodle, especially of you're fighting near a couple of critters. In fact I pretty much use HW glyphed for the elemental stun and for taking down mobs of critters for the guild achievement.

The only big holy hitter is Exo. I haven't run numbers, but I know I spec'd into Blazing Light over Seals of the Pure because Exo was counting for more damage than Censure, and 10%/point on that seems a lot better than 6%/point on seals. Maybe at 85 with longer fights the seal will pull ahead, I'm not sure.

I'm also finding that without FCFS faceroll my dungeon dps is sucking big time. I haven't been pushing hard on gear, enchants, hit cap, etc. but I was bottom of the charts in Stonecore at 83/84 against lvl 82 folks. I think it's time to get a good HUD that shows Inq timer, CS cooldown, and HoPo right in the middle of the screen. Anyone got any faviourit add-ons for this kind of thing?

Edit: CLCInfo seems to be looking pretty good these days if the screenies are anything to go by. I might have to try it out tonight.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Kelaan » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:37 am

rodos wrote:I'm also finding that without FCFS faceroll my dungeon dps is sucking big time. I haven't been pushing hard on gear, enchants, hit cap, etc. but I was bottom of the charts in Stonecore at 83/84 against lvl 82 folks. I think it's time to get a good HUD that shows Inq timer, CS cooldown, and HoPo right in the middle of the screen. Anyone got any faviourit add-ons for this kind of thing?


I don't know how good the FCFS handling is in cases when something is ready and CS is Almost Ready, but I really like CLCRet. Having something like that or power aurs to tell me "Hey dummy, you get a free 3-point Templar's Verdict!" is tremendously useful. Before I installed that, I didn't notice enough of my free 3-HP uses, and thus my DPS suffered.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby HungSolo » Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:40 pm

Quick question does CLCRet work with Cat?
I used when I first started playing a Ret sepc but after awhile you get a feel for things and I del the addon. Now I need to get the FEEL of things again.

I know the feeling on the Dungeon DPS count, I use to walk into dungeos with my head held high but after my first encounter I was hoping I wasnt going to get kicked off the island. I did how ever run to my bank and break out my T9 and T10 gear and the next dungeon didnt go so bad thanks to tier bonuses.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Cronus » Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:53 am

I have been leveling as ret and doing dungeons as prot. I dont know where it falls in but to me, inquisition SUCKS! I quit using it all together because I see no benefit to it. As ret, my dps is outright horrible! I think blizz doesnt want us to be ret anymore.

As for prot, LOVE IT! The rotation and everything is awesome. I pull 3k MORE dps as prot than as ret!!! WTF? I love playing ret and it used to be my main spec...sigh I guess its time to be the Main Tank again.

Goodbye ret, we had a good run in Wotlk. I will miss you. Thanks blizz for nerf batting ret to the ground.

/end QQ
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Njall » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:09 am

I use Inquisition as ret but really, only when I have multiple targets. It does feel awkward with the requirement to burn the Holy Power you need for your finishing moves. It feels as awkward as Zealotry was in the Beta. That said, I view it as I did "Savage Roar" for feral dps. I will often use it as a post-combat move to use up Holy Power before moving on to the next fight - the buff will last me. When tanking multiple trash, I use it instead of Shield of the Righteous - unless I need to get out a quick WoG - but I seldom use it in boss fights. I might use it as carry over from a previous fight, burn it as Inquisition while the fight is being set up, use my DP to refresh my HP, Exorcism, etc etc etc. It helps with front end loading my threat for fights as a tank but that's about it.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby rodos » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:47 pm

Cronus wrote:I have been leveling as ret and doing dungeons as prot. I dont know where it falls in but to me, inquisition SUCKS! I quit using it all together because I see no benefit to it. As ret, my dps is outright horrible! I think blizz doesnt want us to be ret anymore.

As for prot, LOVE IT! The rotation and everything is awesome. I pull 3k MORE dps as prot than as ret!!! WTF? I love playing ret and it used to be my main spec...sigh I guess its time to be the Main Tank again.

Goodbye ret, we had a good run in Wotlk. I will miss you. Thanks blizz for nerf batting ret to the ground.

/end QQ

I've been reading a bit on EJ and starting to get a few hints of some interesting info. I think some of the Inquisition hate, and bad dps, might be coming from an over-emphasis of the importance TV. In 4.0.1 TV was just so huge - just about 1-shotting Wrath mobs - that it has a zOMG AWESOMES association in the mind. However, I don't think it scales so well.

My first tip-off was Ghostcrawler's quote "Unholy and Retribution come to mind, because their masteries currently affect sources of damage that just aren't large enough to be competitive". I read that and was a bit confused. Surely TV is my biggest source of damage, and thus the Ret mastery is awesome?! Then, reading EJ's Retribution Concordance, the light came on. Exorcism is the ability that hits like a train at 85, and Inquisition buffs it directly.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby d503 » Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:14 pm

rodos wrote:I've been reading a bit on EJ and starting to get a few hints of some interesting info. I think some of the Inquisition hate, and bad dps, might be coming from an over-emphasis of the importance TV. In 4.0.1 TV was just so huge - just about 1-shotting Wrath mobs - that it has a zOMG AWESOMES association in the mind. However, I don't think it scales so well.

My first tip-off was Ghostcrawler's quote "Unholy and Retribution come to mind, because their masteries currently affect sources of damage that just aren't large enough to be competitive". I read that and was a bit confused. Surely TV is my biggest source of damage, and thus the Ret mastery is awesome?! Then, reading EJ's Retribution Concordance, the light came on. Exorcism is the ability that hits like a train at 85, and Inquisition buffs it directly.


This this this! Exorcism is buffed so much by talents and Art of War, that I think the those bonuses might outscale TV with Inquistion up.

I found that the easiest way of dealing with Inq was to just get CLCRet, and set it to prioritize Inq-rebuffs with 5s remaining. Then I prioritize Exo as my top, followed by HoW (also holy dmg, and buffed by Inq), and then TV.

It'll be interesting to see what Blizzard decides to do about Ret mastery. I don't really mind it currently, as it adds a nice dynamic aspect to the class, but all of the Theorycrafting is pointing to it being pointless to focus on as an attribute.

Given the abundance of Mastery gear out there, it seems like Ret will be missing out by not having a good reliance on it.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Dantriges » Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:01 am

Heard a discussion about mage stats in Teamspeak yesterday and seems that mages aren´t exactly happy with mastery either.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Mannstein » Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:27 am

rodos wrote:I read that and was a bit confused. Surely TV is my biggest source of damage, and thus the Ret mastery is awesome?! Then, reading EJ's Retribution Concordance, the light came on. Exorcism is the ability that hits like a train at 85, and Inquisition buffs it directly.


The issue is that the proc of Ret Mastery (Free TV) will use a GCD that would be used for something else. So your dps gain is not +TV damage, is in fact TV damage less the ability you would use in it's space and is delayed.
IF the ret mastery was a free instant cast off the GCD TV the story would be something else :D.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Gavinas » Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:01 am

Mannstein wrote:
rodos wrote:I read that and was a bit confused. Surely TV is my biggest source of damage, and thus the Ret mastery is awesome?! Then, reading EJ's Retribution Concordance, the light came on. Exorcism is the ability that hits like a train at 85, and Inquisition buffs it directly.


The issue is that the proc of Ret Mastery (Free TV) will use a GCD that would be used for something else. So your dps gain is not +TV damage, is in fact TV damage less the ability you would use in it's space and is delayed.
IF the ret mastery was a free instant cast off the GCD TV the story would be something else :D.


In my limited experience messing around with ret in prot gear with a 2her hitting the training dummies I seem to have a decent amount of dead time waiting for things to come off cd or Art of War to proc, is that not the case with actual dps gear and raid buffs?
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Kelaan » Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:22 am

Speaking of dead time, something I didn't notice in the EJ thread:

What do I do with dead time? Maximize GCD use (delaying CSes), or go CS,X,wait,CS ... ?
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Cronus » Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:35 am

I think blizzards main focus was on prot pallys and making them on par with the other tanking classes. Ret was a bi-product and really wasn’t focused on. I hope that blizz is working to tweak ret some and give us a less clucky rotation with no dead time AND an increase to our DPS.

I see a change for ret next patch. Exorcism should not be our nuke spell. Its procs are not reliable and w/o proc it’s an uncomfortable wait for it to cast. TV should be our main nuke. Inquisition? Either fix it so it’s a standard part of our rotation w/o sacrificing TV/ WoG or get rid of it.

I have faith ret will be fixed but until then, Prot is so much dam fun!
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby d503 » Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:47 am

Kelaan wrote:Speaking of dead time, something I didn't notice in the EJ thread:

What do I do with dead time? Maximize GCD use (delaying CSes), or go CS,X,wait,CS ... ?


It is a massive DPS loss to delay CS at all. Your goal for gearing should be to get CS as close to 3 seconds as possible (mine's at 3.68 with JotP buff up). I'm only in 346 blues (mostly crap JP gear) and I've reforged mostly haste and hit where I needed it.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Cronus » Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:49 am

d503 wrote:
Kelaan wrote:Your goal for gearing should be to get CS as close to 3 seconds as possible (mine's at 3.68 with JotP buff up). I'm only in 346 blues (mostly crap JP gear) and I've reforged mostly haste and hit where I needed it.


Is haste the smoking gun I am missing for low dps? Should I focus on Hit cap then HASTE HASTE HASTE?
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby d503 » Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:41 pm

Cronus wrote:
d503 wrote:
Kelaan wrote:Your goal for gearing should be to get CS as close to 3 seconds as possible (mine's at 3.68 with JotP buff up). I'm only in 346 blues (mostly crap JP gear) and I've reforged mostly haste and hit where I needed it.


Is haste the smoking gun I am missing for low dps? Should I focus on Hit cap then HASTE HASTE HASTE?


That's what me and my rets are doing. YMMV, but haste will not only decrease CS cooldown, but also reduce the GCD and increase rate of Censure ticks...pretty powerful stuff.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Kelaan » Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:10 pm

Since I'm primarily gearing as a tank, I'm in the "beggars can't be choosers" camp for what type of Ret gear I get. I don't see a lot of haste rating on my gear yet. :-( Once I'm in 333+ gear, I'll do the reforging thing, but until then ... meh. I'll languish. (Actually, I'll tank, and have a frickin' blast.)
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby rodos » Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:25 pm

Gavinas wrote:In my limited experience messing around with ret in prot gear with a 2her hitting the training dummies I seem to have a decent amount of dead time waiting for things to come off cd or Art of War to proc, is that not the case with actual dps gear and raid buffs?

The problem comes when you get a HoL proc at full HoPo and CS is off cooldown. You have to delay CS and thus lose some potential HoPo generation.

Kelaan wrote:What do I do with dead time? Maximize GCD use (delaying CSes), or go CS,X,wait,CS ... ?

From what I've seen, you wait, unless your haste is really low. On trash and world mobs I'll tend to hit Exo as soon as AoW procs, unless I also have HoL up, because if you're lucky you can just Exo, TV, HoW, dead. For sustained dps you need to be getting in every CS you can.

d503 wrote:That's what me and my rets are doing. YMMV, but haste will not only decrease CS cooldown, but also reduce the GCD and increase rate of Censure ticks...pretty powerful stuff.

Haste won't lower your GCD after CS, DS, TV, or Judgement. Exo, HW, and Cons are spells, and thus trigger a hasted GCD. However, since you're pretty much locked to the CS cooldown it doesn't make a lot of difference.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Mannstein » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:40 am

Cronus wrote: Is haste the smoking gun I am missing for low dps? Should I focus on Hit cap then HASTE HASTE HASTE?


Calm down :D
Haste is your friend but Strenght is still you best friend...
Gem for Strenght.. Reforge for Hit>exp>haste.

The issue is:
With a 3seconds CS, you have CS,filler,CS,filler...
It's nice, easy and smooth, any proc is a "nice to have".
With a 4seconds CS, you have CS,filler,wait,CS,Filler,wait...
It's boring, and the procs are "Must have".
After 3years raiding with a GCD capped class, gooing into a "nothing to do every 3seconds" class is very... :(
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Kelaan » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:00 am

Mannstein wrote:Gem for Strenght.. Reforge for Hit>exp>haste.

Thanks for saying it so succinctly. Should I be prioritizing hit/exp more than haste? The rotational difference seems large.
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