4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:38 pm

2Cute2BeStr8 wrote:One Quick Question

How are you guys pulling. I just now realized that Divine Plea gives full HP now?


Answered a couple of pages ago.

DP -> (Optional) Exo -> AS -> ShoR -> 939

Judge before ShoR if mob isn't in melee range yet.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby DexterBelgium » Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:31 pm

Great FAQ, as usual.

The proposed 80 talent build is busted by blizz's sneaky changes to Guarded by the Light tho. The "overheal bubble" now only kicks in as of 2/2 GbtL, so taking one point in it doesn't make any sense any more (unless you only want the holy shield effect, but to me, the bubble seems essential to make WoG usable for us).
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Gamingdevil » Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:06 pm

DexterBelgium wrote:Great FAQ, as usual.

The proposed 80 talent build is busted by blizz's sneaky changes to Guarded by the Light tho. The "overheal bubble" now only kicks in as of 2/2 GbtL, so taking one point in it doesn't make any sense any more (unless you only want the holy shield effect, but to me, the bubble seems essential to make WoG usable for us).


It's the other way around for me. I'd use it when I need it, not whenever I can. If I only use it when I have a health deficit, I don't need the bubble and I'd much rather keep the additional mitigation from Holy Shield.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:52 pm

DexterBelgium wrote:Great FAQ, as usual.

Thanks. :mrgreen:

DexterBelgium wrote:The proposed 80 talent build is busted by blizz's sneaky changes to Guarded by the Light tho. The "overheal bubble" now only kicks in as of 2/2 GbtL, so taking one point in it doesn't make any sense any more (unless you only want the holy shield effect, but to me, the bubble seems essential to make WoG usable for us).

My view is that the old version made the second point useless - we got everything important from the first point. Splitting the shield and the bubble to first and second point evens out the two talent points and makes both useful.

To be general: I'll be doing an update to the FAQ very shortly (possibly tonight) to cover all the changes through to 4.0.3a and the "level to 85" period, probably some advice for prepping for raids.

To be specific to GbtL: I'd strongly recommend the first talent point if you're ever going to cast WoG (and you will cast it). The second point becomes valuable if you're going to cast WoG a lot, rather than only as an "oh shit". My expectation is that we'll cast WoG a fair bit so the second point will be quite good for most people.

TL;DR:
  • 1/2 GbtL: Almost mandatory.
  • 2/2 GbtL: Good talent point, probably better than sticking a point in a threat talent for nearly everyone.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:01 pm

Gamingdevil, talking about WoG / GbtL wrote:It's the other way around for me. I'd use it when I need it, not whenever I can. If I only use it when I have a health deficit, I don't need the bubble and I'd much rather keep the additional mitigation from Holy Shield.


My limited experience (level 80, Halion-25-hard, BiS gear) is that once we have a full stack of Vengeance, threat becomes an utterly trivial issue. I was quite literally doing double the TPS of pre-nerf Fury Warriors: I’d end Halion P1 with 2 million threat, the warrior would have 1 mil. In that circumstance, you can either ShoR for some extra damage that isn’t going to really help that much, or you can WoG and save your healers some stress/mana.

For the (probably relatively few) balls-to-the-wall DPS races you’ll use ShoR (and making sure you have hit/expertise gear on). For everything else I’ll be using (and recommending) WoG. That makes the 2nd point pretty strong.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Awyndel » Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:43 am

The bubble can still be very usefull even if you don't cast it very often. You can cast it ahead of a damage spike, increasing your EH.

And for "oh shit" purposes I would even consider the crit talent at 85.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Njall » Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:49 am

A few things there that were food for thought. Very much appreciated.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby DexterBelgium » Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:26 am

knaughty wrote:
DexterBelgium wrote:Great FAQ, as usual.

Thanks. :mrgreen:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captatio_benevolentiae :wink:
[...]

TL;DR:
  • 1/2 GbtL: Almost mandatory.
  • 2/2 GbtL: Good talent point, probably better than sticking a point in a threat talent for nearly everyone.


Indeed. The problem for me is that even in between the decision to cast WoG and the finger actually hitting the button, you could get nukehealed back to full (especially if your healers aren't bad, but were just "otherwise engaged"), wasting your WoG unless you have that second point. I'm taking a point out of GrC for it (if just to spite that talent, which I still consider clunky).
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Jarvick » Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:33 pm

Great info in here, thanks for sharing it.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby RedAces » Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:44 am

hey,
DexterBelgium wrote:The problem for me is that even in between the decision to cast WoG and the finger actually hitting the button, you could get nukehealed back to full


Like I heard, this is not the case in cata anymore... making WoG really good.

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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Durun » Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:22 am

What are the thoughts on making a castsequence macro that does Shield of the Righteous first, followed by a Word of Glory on the second line for the 939 rotation, like such.

CS -> Judge -> CS -> HW -> CS -> SotR
CS -> Judge -> CS -> AS -> CS -> WoG

Would allow you to benefit from both abilities, while keeping threat maintained and healing up solidly.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Kuridan » Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:06 am

Durun wrote:What are the thoughts on making a castsequence macro that does Shield of the Righteous first, followed by a Word of Glory on the second line for the 939 rotation, like such.

CS -> Judge -> CS -> HW -> CS -> SotR
CS -> Judge -> CS -> AS -> CS -> WoG

Would allow you to benefit from both abilities, while keeping threat maintained and healing up solidly.


Hate the idea honestly. Deciding to use WoG or ShotR is pretty situational, the time it comes up in your macro may not be the best time to use it. I much prefer to have everything bound seperately so I can chose which button to use. For instance say it's time in your rotation to cast CS, but the mob is casting a spell, well it may be a dps loss to cast AS, but that's what I'm going to do to interupt the cast. Or you have an awesome healer who's keeping you topped up, why waste HP on WoG when I can ShotR. Much better to have all your options open for you then be locked into a macro.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Durun » Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:22 am

The macro i was refering to was simply more along the lines of a /castsequence Shield of the Righteous, Word of Glory macro. It would only fill in the final part of the 939 rotation for the dumping of holy power part, not for the entire 939 rotation.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Kuridan » Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:53 am

Durun wrote:The macro i was refering to was simply more along the lines of a /castsequence Shield of the Righteous, Word of Glory macro. It would only fill in the final part of the 939 rotation for the dumping of holy power part, not for the entire 939 rotation.


I see what you are saying, although the original post doesn't make it look like that. I still think you would be better off having the abilities keybound seperately. Personally I have Shield on 4 and WoG on 5, very easy to hit either one.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby DexterBelgium » Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:24 am

Yeps, I have the same thing, all "either/or" buttons right next or above and below one another: WoG above ShoR, AS above HW above Consec, CS above Hammer. You could do the same thing with modifiers, really. Whatever suits your style. I, too, can't see the benefit in having a macro. You'll curse it when that second ShoR at the beginning of the fight that would have kept the nuking, cooldownpopping 30second wonder DPS mouthbreather from peeling off you, and you'll curse it again at the end of the fight, when your healer's mana bar is begging for mercy and your Omen shows only a single bar with a few dots underneath, if you catch my drift.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:56 pm

I've never liked /castsequence macros. I need all my abilities available and key-bound because during actual real encounters rather than "tanking" a target dummy, you frequently want to mix up what you're casting.

At which point I need everything key-bound... and then another key or the cast-sequence. What's the point?

I use a game-pad, all "in-combat" abilities are on the pad. Keyboard doesn't get touched during combat. In fact, the only thing the keyboard gets used for is chatting - I don't know what keyboard keys my abilities are bound to...

I did find that the gamepad didn't have enough buttons, so I got a 17-button mouse as well.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:30 am

Updated for levelling to 85!

Good luck and have fun - no updates till I ding 5 times.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby -Davitz » Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:53 pm

knaughty wrote:Q: OMG, Cataclysm hit and I'm levelling prot starting in 5 minutes tell me how to spec?
A: 0/31/5

Link leads to a 0/32/4 build
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:03 pm

-Davitz wrote:Link leads to a 0/32/4 build


Well spotted - fixed. I'll check the 85 build later.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby theckhd » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:23 pm

CS is an OK 3rd prime for AE

I assume that was supposed to be s/CS/HotR, or else s/AE/ST
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:52 pm

theckhd wrote:
CS is an OK 3rd prime for AE

I assume that was supposed to be s/CS/HotR, or else s/AE/ST


I subbed CS in for HotR but forgot to adjust the wording. Fixed.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:41 pm

Just a quick update from the field: 

Based on first three raid targets, the correct raiding build will be to maximize WoG. We've killed OmegaTronRobotCouncil and Tol Barad, and given GenieTriplePlayBoss enough of a try to understand the mechanics, ShoR is used for snap aggro on the pull and for locking down a taunt or target switch. Outside first 10 seconds of a boss fight, you don't generally need the threat from ShoR, while the healing from WoG is both substantial and useful. Yes, those are different things. I keep being asked b beakers "Zomg! Where'd that heal come from?"

General pace of combat is much slower - you do have time to act to shit. You can spend enormous amounts of time not topped off, you only need full health for boss specials, not the next swing. Reactive use of CDs is thus possible. I'm using the two 20% CDs ver frequently as "help the healer catch up" cool downs. You can pop them preemptively to save some healer mana. I'm stacking them for a real CD or using GAnK.

Put the PBAoE heal on you bars. Very useful in heroics - there's lots of "stack up and take damage" phases. Your healer will appreciate the help.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Ojimaru » Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:56 pm

Question regarding pulling: Which would be a better sequence?

a) Divine Plea > Avenging Wrath + Inquisition > Avenger's Shield > Judgement

or

b) Divine Plea > Avenger's Shield > Judgement > Avenging Wrath > Shield of the Righteous

(or does Avenging Wrath and Inquisition stack at all?)
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:09 pm

Ojimaru wrote:Question regarding pulling: Which would be a better sequence?

a) Divine Plea > Avenging Wrath + Inquisition > Avenger's Shield > Judgement

or

b) Divine Plea > Avenger's Shield > Judgement > Avenging Wrath > Shield of the Righteous

(or does Avenging Wrath and Inquisition stack at all?)


My best guess is:

c) Divine Plea -> Avenging Wrath -> Judgement -> Avenger's Shield (if it fits) -> ShoR

Reasoning:
  1. Inquisition isn't optimal for single-target use.
  2. Judgement is our hardest hitting ability once you include the ShoR crit proc.
  3. AS is pretty damn good as well, especially glyphed.
Thus: You want to boot them with AW as well as the ShoR.

Tip: If you want a seriously OP threat lead in the first 5 seconds, and you have a gentle trash-pack before the boss:

  1. Save 3 HP from last trash pack.
  2. Engage boss quickly
  3. Wings -> ShoR -> DP -> ShoR -> 939
  4. 10 seconds into boss fight, switch to WoG spam. You'll have an unassailable threat lead.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby theckhd » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:11 am

I've been saving AW and DP for about 10 seconds into the fight rather than using them on the pull. In other words, I pull with

Judge->AS->CS->Cons->CS->(AS or 0.5+Jud)->CS->AW+SotR->DP->SotR->939

This should give slightly more overall threat, provided you can manage the first 10 seconds without AW. It guarantees that you'll get 3 SotR's in during AW, allows you to build up stacks of Censure first, and gives Vengeance a little time to stack up. I usually run with a rogue or hunter, so the first 30 seconds on a boss aren't usually a problem; the bigger concern is making sure that I eclipse the highest DPS player before Tricks runs out.

After 30-60 seconds, threat usually becomes trivial enough that I can switch to WoG spam, and often Seal of Light on progression fights.
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