4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Levels and Gear Guide

Postby econ21 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:55 am

I wonder if it would be worth having a level 1.5 "geared for heroics", given the item level requirement in LFD (average 329?). This would be an amalgam of gear from levels 1 and 2 with an emphasis on "failsafe" items that can be picked up fast (no exalted reps), with modest cost (no top tier crafted gear). I guess a lot of new level 85s will be making their own such lists; I'll post mine when I ding.
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Re: Tank Level 2: Geared to Start Raiding

Postby econ21 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:57 am

Here's what I have put together, drawing from lists for levels 1 and 2:

Heroic ready failsafe list

Head: [Grinning Fang Helm] / [Crown of Wings] : Dragonmaw Clan / Wildhammer Clan (Revered)
Neck: [Mountain's Mouth] : Guardians of Hyjal (Honored)
Shoulders: [Sunburnt Pauldrons] : 1650 Justice Points
Back: [Shroud of the Dead] : Ramkahen - Honored
Chest: [Breastplate of the Witness] : Grim Batol (Quest)
Wrists: [Dunwald's Finest Bindings] : Twilight Highlands (Quest)
Hands: [Gloves of Gnomebliteration] : Uldum (Quest)
Waist: [Girdle of the Mountains] : 1650 Justice Points
Legs: [Stone-Wrapped Greaves] : The Earthen Ring (Honored)
Feet: [Ramkahen Front Boots] : Lost City of the Tol'vir (Quest)
Finger #1: [Red Rock Band] : Ramkahen (Revered)
Finger #2
:[Felsen's Ring of Resolve] : Therazane (Revered)
Trinket #1: [Harrison's Insignia of Panache] : Uldum (Quest)
Trinket #2: [Za'brok's Lucky Tooth] / [Za'brok's Lucky Tooth] : Twilight Highlands (Quest)
Weapon: [Mace of the Gullet] : Twilight Highlands (Quest)
[Dragonscorn Mace] : Twilight Highlands (Quest)
Shield
: [Truthbreaker Shield] : Req. Lev. 84 : Stormwind (Quest)
Relic: [Shore-Cleansing Standard]

There are a few slots where I am struggling - trinkets obviously. Also, the cloak is a dps one, but has mastery and there did not seem to be easy alternatives.

As I went to Vashj'ir and not Hyjal, I personally am stuck on the neck slot as I don't have any Hyjal rep. There are drops in Halls of Origination but as with the cloak I may just cheat and find a non-tank blue to get by.

I am not sure if the two JP purchases are the best use of ones 4000 honor, but I suspect they are ok. There are no obvious "failsafe" items in those slots (I fear the BS belt will be prohibitively expensive). JP items seem generally the best pre-raid gear, so we will probably end up doing a Yappo style blitz and filling most slots with them pre-raid. To that extent, it may not matter which ones we buy when - we will get 'em all eventually.

I have not done the maths, but hopefully the 346 items will balance out those items under level and get me to 329+ average.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:30 am

I restructured things to have five stages, to provide a distinct stage for pre-heroic level 85 dungeons. When Wowhead (or one of the other profile sites) finally has working level 85 character models, I'll use your gear set as the basis for the new stage 2 model.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby econ21 » Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:58 am

It's looking good Digren - although I think you might have missed the quest shield in my list. You have to do that quest to start the Twilight Highlands, so new level 85s should have it.

Having spent half a day a 85, I got a set that would allow me to do heroics. The main difference from the list I posted is the absence of most revered reputation pieces. I think my hitting revered with Therazane while levelling was a fluke - the other factions are a way off (only half way to revered or less). I am little vague which dungeons give rep with tabards. I had thought (hoped?) all dungeons would but it does not seem so. The tabard tool tips say L85 dungeons, so I guess that is Grim Baol, Halls of Origination and the Lost City (plus heroics ofc)? So doing your random daily does not guarantee any rep (it could include Vortex Pinnacle or Stonecore). Both the dailies and dungeon runs seem to give around 2k rep, so grinding rep is slow but sure.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Levels and Gear Guide

Postby theckhd » Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:03 am

lythac wrote:I wonder if the 0.2 slower speed on Cookie's Tenderizer would warrant its inclusion under both threat and surv threat for "Tank Level 2" weapons.


Probably. It performs right on par with 359 normal-mode raid weapons.

Here's my recommendations on weapons:

Theck wrote:TLDR Summary:
  • Weapon performance can roughly be determined by sorting in this order:
    1. ilvl and speed (+0.2 speed is worth ~ 13 ilvls)
    2. Primary and Secondary stats (STR>AGI, Hit/Exp>Crit/Haste)
  • DPS weapons aren't really anything special anymore, they're no better or worse than an equal-ilvl tank weapon with similar primary/secondary stats.
  • Slow spellpower weapons lag tanking weapons by about 26 ilvls at best, fast spellpower weapons are far worse.
  • Rule of Thumb: Within an ilvl category, pick items based on the secondary stats you like. For upgrades, slower and higher ilvl is almost always better.


Also a couple of observations/comments about the list(s):
  • Killshades probably shouldn't be included in the level 2 list, as they require at least one Heroic clear (and more likely, several until you win an orb).
  • [Twilight Dragonscale Cloak] is probably worth listing on the level 4 list, as it's very comparable to [Wrap of the Great Turtle]. The crafted item has 41 more stamina, the epic has +15 dodge, +15 mastery, and +15 parry from Strength. Since Hyjal has little else to offer past Honored, using the crafted item lets you put that rep grind on the back burner so you can focus on Wildhammer/Ramkahen.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby yappo » Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:30 am

Ok, the failsafe gearing guide is in a state good enough to make it worth linking to from the level 3 tank definition.
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Re: Tank Level 2: Geared to Start Raiding

Postby Digren » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:27 am

econ21 wrote:Here's what I have put together, drawing from lists for levels 1 and 2:

Heroic ready failsafe list

Neck: [Mountain's Mouth] : Guardians of Hyjal (Honored)

Why this piece, when there are both a Justice Point piece and a JC crafted piece available at iLvl 346? I would consider that a heroic-ready failsafe list could rely on more than 4000 Justice Points, given that you can have 4000 points when you ding 85 and then presumably must spend some number of days at 85 running normals before you are "heroic ready".
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Re: Tank Level 2: Geared to Start Raiding

Postby Digren » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:31 am

econ21 wrote:Here's what I have put together, drawing from lists for levels 1 and 2:

Heroic ready failsafe list

Back: [Shroud of the Dead] : Ramkahen - Honored

I've generally left off crit/mastery and haste/mastery items, primarily to keep the list shorter, but I'll add them where they make sense. I've put this on the list. I've also added a few that I found to be upgrades during my own leveling, like Pauldrons of Unholy Rituals on the stage 1 list.
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Re: Tank Level 2: Geared to Start Raiding

Postby Digren » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:34 am

econ21 wrote:Wrists: [Dunwald's Finest Bindings] : Twilight Highlands (Quest)

Meh. I've put this on the stage 2 list because there otherwise were no failsafe options. I can't believe this is the best guaranteed-drop wrist pre raids.
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Re: Tank Level 2: Geared to Start Raiding

Postby Digren » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:42 am

econ21 wrote:Trinket #1: [Harrison's Insignia of Panache] : Uldum (Quest)

So here's an interesting thought. I finished this quest yesterday, and rather than the above item, I chose [Schnotzz's Medallion of Command].

Strength is a second-tier threat stat, which provides 25% of the parry of parry rating. In other words, a strength/mastery trinket is dual threat/survivability, with poor threat and most of the survivability random. it's the equivalent of:
59 parry rating
some amount of attack power
mastery proc

On the other hand, Agility is a worst threat stat but provides 58% of the dodge of dodge rating. Thus, the agility/mastery trinket is the equivalent of:
135 dodge rating
some amount of crit rating
mastery proc

...and in my opinion that makes it better than the strength trinket for a survivability set.

Edit: Updated numbers for level 85 based on Theck's input.
Last edited by Digren on Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Njall » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:44 am

You're just a stinkin' Schnotzzi sympathizer.

That said, I'll be getting the Panache medallion - if only for the utility of using it in both tanking and ret equipment sets. You are probably right though.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Kelaan » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:56 am

Njall wrote:I'll be getting the Panache medallion - if only for the utility of using it in both tanking and ret equipment sets. You are probably right though.

I'm in the same boat. I want to get my ret gear as good as I can while not sacrificing too much tankability, and that will likely mean picking ret-friendly quest rewards since I'll be using money and JP on tank gear.
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Re: Tank Level 2: Geared to Start Raiding

Postby Digren » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:56 am

econ21 wrote:Here's what I have put together, drawing from lists for levels 1 and 2

I've filled out the stage two list based on this, but building one specific set will wait until somebody, somewhere, as a character modeler/profiler working at level 85. Wowhead or Magelo, I'm looking at you!
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:58 am

Kelaan wrote:
Njall wrote:I'll be getting the Panache medallion - if only for the utility of using it in both tanking and ret equipment sets. You are probably right though.

I'm in the same boat. I want to get my ret gear as good as I can while not sacrificing too much tankability, and that will likely mean picking ret-friendly quest rewards since I'll be using money and JP on tank gear.

Ahh. I don't have a ret set, and building my tank threat set is always secondary to my survivability set. DPS can hold off if my threat is low (Note: there's no indication yet that my threat is low), but there's not much anyone can do if I'm dying.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Njall » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:01 am

Digren wrote:Ahh. I don't have a ret set, and building my tank threat set is always secondary to my survivability set. DPS can hold off if my threat is low (Note: there's no indication yet that my threat is low), but there's not much anyone can do if I'm dying.


True. But I don't have the time anymore to lovingly run instances till I get every darn piece I need for both sets (Essence of Gossamer, I REMEMBER you... I remember you not EVER dropping). So, if I have something that helps me out by multitasking, I'll take it.

Which reminds me, I have to build my elementium dragonling tonight. You are still, however, a Stinking Schnotzzi sympathizer. I hate those guys.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Levels and Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:22 am

theckhd wrote:
lythac wrote:I wonder if the 0.2 slower speed on Cookie's Tenderizer would warrant its inclusion under both threat and surv threat for "Tank Level 2" weapons.


Probably. It performs right on par with 359 normal-mode raid weapons.

Here's my recommendations on weapons:

Theck wrote:TLDR Summary:
  • Weapon performance can roughly be determined by sorting in this order:
    1. ilvl and speed (+0.2 speed is worth ~ 13 ilvls)
    2. Primary and Secondary stats (STR>AGI, Hit/Exp>Crit/Haste)
  • DPS weapons aren't really anything special anymore, they're no better or worse than an equal-ilvl tank weapon with similar primary/secondary stats.
  • Slow spellpower weapons lag tanking weapons by about 26 ilvls at best, fast spellpower weapons are far worse.
  • Rule of Thumb: Within an ilvl category, pick items based on the secondary stats you like. For upgrades, slower and higher ilvl is almost always better.


Also a couple of observations/comments about the list(s):
  • Killshades probably shouldn't be included in the level 2 list, as they require at least one Heroic clear (and more likely, several until you win an orb).
  • [Twilight Dragonscale Cloak] is probably worth listing on the level 4 list, as it's very comparable to [Wrap of the Great Turtle]. The crafted item has 41 more stamina, the epic has +15 dodge, +15 mastery, and +15 parry from Strength. Since Hyjal has little else to offer past Honored, using the crafted item lets you put that rep grind on the back burner so you can focus on Wildhammer/Ramkahen.

A lot of the commentary, etc., including links to your analysis are still lacking, but I have Cookie's on the correct lists now.

I was really hoping/expecting that they would add chaos orbs to the JP vendor by the time I hit level 85. Damn. I'm disappointed in engineering again when I really want to be excited about all the cool toys.

I've added the cloak to the stage four list.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:26 am

yappo wrote:Ok, the failsafe gearing guide is in a state good enough to make it worth linking to from the level 3 tank definition.

Done
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:31 am

Njall wrote:Which reminds me, I have to build my elementium dragonling tonight. You are still, however, a Stinking Schnotzzi sympathizer. I hate those guys.

When I finished Uldum (including helping Mr. Schnotzz "check out" thank you very much), I farmed last night just long enough to have the mats for my Dragonling. He's pretty.

What happened to Belloc? He was just gone from the first quest building when I returned from status smashing, when the building exploded. This wasn't explained, was it? Will he come back in a future expansion?

Edit: I really like the Uldum story line, with one exception: When Schnotzz "took me out back" and pointed the big rocket gun at me, I hated that the script made me cower in fear. Instead I would have liked to say "Hey, nice weapon. Guess what, I have one too." and whipped out my Goblin Rocket Launcher, or my rocket launcher tinker. No goblin is going to scare me with engineering tech. I've been a goblin engineer since Schnotzz was in his fashionist little diapers.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Njall » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:39 am

Digren wrote:
What happened to Belloc? He was just gone from the first quest building when I returned from status smashing, when the building exploded. This wasn't explained, was it? Will he come back in a future expansion?


Considering he's the head of the Reliquary, I'm thinking he'll show up again. Probably about the same time we seen Brann. Where IS Brann?!?! Damnit. He was supposed to be in Uldum but it looks like they gave that job to Harrison... who's a troll expert. What is a troll expert like him doing in Uldum? That's like expecting a Hittite specialist to competently interpret Qin Dynasty statuary.

Sigh, I guess we'll have to go looking for m'man Bronzebeard. Again.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:39 pm

Njall wrote:Where IS Brann?!?! Damnit. He was supposed to be in Uldum but it looks like they gave that job to Harrison... who's a troll expert. What is a troll expert like him doing in Uldum? That's like expecting a Hittite specialist to competently interpret Qin Dynasty statuary.

Sigh, I guess we'll have to go looking for m'man Bronzebeard. Again.

Spoiler in the extra small font.



Didn't you finish Uldum? Brann jumped out of the artifact just after he used it to kill Schnotzz. Then he taunted Harrison and you for being slower than him, yet again.
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Re: Tank Level 2: Geared to Start Raiding

Postby yappo » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:55 pm

Digren wrote:
econ21 wrote:Here's what I have put together, drawing from lists for levels 1 and 2:

Heroic ready failsafe list

Neck: [Mountain's Mouth] : Guardians of Hyjal (Honored)

Why this piece, when there are both a Justice Point piece and a JC crafted piece available at iLvl 346? I would consider that a heroic-ready failsafe list could rely on more than 4000 Justice Points, given that you can have 4000 points when you ding 85 and then presumably must spend some number of days at 85 running normals before you are "heroic ready".


Observe that the 4000 JP when dinging 85 will most likely no longer be an option in a month or two (ie the upcoming tanks haven't killed everything in sight in WotLK).
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby econ21 » Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:20 am

The pre-heroic failsafe gear set was devised for me and those in the same position - coming from wotlk with a JP cap. But since getting to L85 and not yet running heroics, I have been struck by how starved I am for JP. 70 a day for a daily random is a real come down after drowning in them while running ICC (I got full T10 for all 3 specs, plus both PVP relentless sets). As Yappo says, a long term failsafe pre-heroic list for those levelling new characters should probably include no JP purchase items.

The gear set was theorycrafted from the great gear lists in this forum - in practice, I got to 329 ilevel on day 1 of being 85 with significantly worse gear. I have not yet done the Harrison trinket quest (I used that green diplomacy avoidance trinket instead) and did not know about the agility one. But the strength one features as a good threat trinket in others lists, so in the long term it may be better to acquire a good threat trinket than a mediocre survival one. However, I will wait a while before making that choice.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Arianne » Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:04 am

The random epic belts appear to drop from Council of Four Winds at least. We got two tonight from 10 man - of the Flashfire and of the Earthfall or something like that.
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Re: Tank Level 2: Geared to Start Raiding

Postby Digren » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:06 am

yappo wrote:
Digren wrote:
econ21 wrote:Here's what I have put together, drawing from lists for levels 1 and 2:

Heroic ready failsafe list

Neck: [Mountain's Mouth] : Guardians of Hyjal (Honored)

Why this piece, when there are both a Justice Point piece and a JC crafted piece available at iLvl 346? I would consider that a heroic-ready failsafe list could rely on more than 4000 Justice Points, given that you can have 4000 points when you ding 85 and then presumably must spend some number of days at 85 running normals before you are "heroic ready".


Observe that the 4000 JP when dinging 85 will most likely no longer be an option in a month or two (ie the upcoming tanks haven't killed everything in sight in WotLK).

Do you not get justice points in the Cata leveling dungeons? I would expect a typical leveler to run each of them once - since I would expect them to have quest reward gear from those dungeons.

How many JP do you get from those? I've been for months so I'm not sure. With the numbers I'll adjust my expectations appropriately.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:08 am

econ21 wrote:The pre-heroic failsafe gear set was devised for me and those in the same position - coming from wotlk with a JP cap. But since getting to L85 and not yet running heroics, I have been struck by how starved I am for JP. 70 a day for a daily random is a real come down after drowning in them while running ICC (I got full T10 for all 3 specs, plus both PVP relentless sets). As Yappo says, a long term failsafe pre-heroic list for those levelling new characters should probably include no JP purchase items.

Oh, 70 a day. Gotcha. Okay then, no more than 1000 JP when you ding 85 it is, then.
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