[4.0.1] TPS Concern

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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Showania » Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:06 pm

I agree completely that paladin TPS at the moment is terrible. Our raid is in [H]ICC 25 gear. We were doing 0-Watcher Yogg-Saron, with no rogue/hunter in the raid, and when an add came out, I got to CS it once...and if it wasn't taunted back by myself or our druid tank it would just run to our mage or our elemental shaman. The only time I didn't have aggro ripped off me was when I had a 3 stack of holy power left over ready to SotR the next add. Then, it seemed threat wasn't an issue, but only if I was able to 3 stack SotR the add.

We also did Heroic Halion 10 and I had the warlock riding my threat nearly the entire 1st phase. I had to blow wings, AS, judge, then CS, keeping Conc on CD to ensure max TPS generation while building holy power. Said warlock is within 50 TPS right behind me, and knowing him, he was holding back significantly.

It really seems like we're going back to the argument that i.e. a warrior's shield slam, which is readily available to use to use for spike threat on a single target situation vs. our SotR ramp up time. It's incredibly frustrating at the moment.

I can't also help but argue the point that this really comes down to DPS having to resort to assisting and FF. This expansion has really taken that concept away, especially with the mindless AoE concept. While with the threat changes will make DPS pay attention to what's going on (for example, long ago on Gurtogg Bloodboil where a DPS could not out threat any of the tanks). I hope that this doesn't lead DPS to have to hold back from dealing out their max numbers, as that will be a huge hit on progression fights where DPS makes the fight (Festergut).
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Dantriges » Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:51 pm

cardnialsyn wrote:Mages have invis and Iceblock.


And mirror image but wonderful thing to find out after some raiding hiatus that your threat isn´t monitored by Omen anymore. I just got a zero button making invis mandatory after 30 seconds because it´s just guesswork if you will overaggro or not after 30 seconds.
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby amityafflict » Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:02 am

Does anyone have TPS concerns that aren't based on anecdotes? If people are pulling off you in a single gcd thats their concern for not giving you ample time to get threat and vengeance, not an actual reflection on tps. Have you tried using slower weapons? gearing towards hit/exp caps? Using eventhorizon to see if you're having gaps in between gcds? are you even using the correct rotation for that matter? I could provide just as much anecdotal evidence to suggest that Pally TPS is amazing, most fights my damage is normalized within the dps.
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby exiledknight » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:52 pm

Threat is pretty much a joke now, its pretty simple hit DP before the pull and you have an instant 3 HP ShoR to start with, if someone is pulling off you within a few seconds then they are bad, if you are losing threat once firmly established then you need to look at your rotation and gearing. By this point dps should all know that they can not go apeshit within 2-3 seconds of the pull and it should no longer be a concern especially with the changes made yesterday. Instant 3 HP ShoR to start every pull, yes tyvm!
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Neptuno » Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:59 am

if you want to see how poorly vengeance stacks up, there's an addon called vengeance status. it reports uptime and avg % for the previous fight on mouseover.
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Rasmfrackn » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:56 am

amityafflict wrote:Does anyone have TPS concerns that aren't based on anecdotes? If people are pulling off you in a single gcd thats their concern for not giving you ample time to get threat and vengeance, not an actual reflection on tps. Have you tried using slower weapons? gearing towards hit/exp caps? Using eventhorizon to see if you're having gaps in between gcds? are you even using the correct rotation for that matter? I could provide just as much anecdotal evidence to suggest that Pally TPS is amazing, most fights my damage is normalized within the dps.


I think the anecdotes have run the gamut of situations, not just "we can't hold threat". The point isn't that tank threat is just noticeably low, it's that vengeance is bad in multiple ways that can either end up giving you ridiculous insurmountable amounts of threat or giving you not much threat at all.

ICC exacerbates things a bit extra since it's +30% health and thus +30% vengeance, but in general the difference betweeen 0 vengeance and max vengeance is about +200% attack power. 200%! There is essentially no way they can balance our tanking abilities in both the high vengeance and low vengeance situation at the same time.

Our DPS/TPS scales (scaled) almost linearly with AP. They're finally "Fixing" things in totally the wrong way, namely thrashing our coefficients and adding a lot of static damage ala ShoR. Most tanks other than maybe bears need to share abilities with their non-tank specs, which sort of limits their tweaking to maybe 30-40% of our total output.

It's just bad in both ways. It means our damage is tuned too low as a baseline (soloing, 5mans) because we're assumed to triple our AP in the steady state. It means our damage is ridiculous when we're actually maxed out because it triples the stat that we scale with. Whether we get lucky and it builds quickly or unlucky/disadvantaged by mechanics it builds slowly if at all. Neither situation is good for balance.

I still get that we should scale our TPS with tank stats. It just has to not have such a ludicrous swing to it.
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Njall » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:58 am

exiledknight wrote:Threat is pretty much a joke now, its pretty simple hit DP before the pull and you have an instant 3 HP ShoR to start with, if someone is pulling off you within a few seconds then they are bad, if you are losing threat once firmly established then you need to look at your rotation and gearing. By this point dps should all know that they can not go apeshit within 2-3 seconds of the pull and it should no longer be a concern especially with the changes made yesterday. Instant 3 HP ShoR to start every pull, yes tyvm!


No, it all depends. We have problems with threat and our tanks in our ICC runs mostly due to a mage who has a simply insane rate of DPS and a deporable tendency to unload while you are starting the pull. (and then bitching after the wipe that he hates waiting 10 seconds before starting dps because threat sucks).
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Protigy » Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:19 pm

I've learned to Maintankdin while turning my back to the boss until today. It was the most reliable way to stack Vengeance. Let's hope that when we're sitting in full t11 that I won't have to revisit considering this again.

Here's to hoping the slew of hotfixes incoming @ 85 contain at least a handful adjusting Vengeance to considerably less RnG.
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