A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby theckhd » Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:18 pm

Bumping. This thread is now going to be our catch-all thread for investigating Cataclysm mechanics. I'll try and keep the first post updated with current requests and confirmed results.

We currently need ability damage scaling parses and meta gem testing, see the first post for details.
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby tlitp » Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:03 am

All right, let's craft an all-encompassing test :
  • spec : anything with 2/2 GrCr
  • gear : any, having equipped a slow weapon enchanted with Mongoose (Brunnhildar Axe is strongly recommended; use Mongoose, not Berserking)
  • seal : Insight
  • buffs/debuffs : none
  • target : a group of at least three well-stacked low-lvl dummies (we're interested in Cleave-type effects, so do your best to find a good spot)
  • attack sequence : cast HotR/3SotR/AS on cooldown (be sure to use the GrCr procs), weave in some J for mana replenishment
  • goal : stop after at least 100 AS casts, upload the CL, report your total AP/SP
  • special notes : avoid STR/INT/AP/SP procs and spell damage debuffs

Thanks.
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby tlitp » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:44 am

theckhd wrote:What I'm not sure about is whether Inq and AW are additive with each other. In other words, whether it's (Inq+AW)*(Crus+WotL+...) or Inq*AW*(Crus+WotL+...). I would guess it's the latter, but I could make a good argument for either.

Cross-post, it's better suited here. Premo's parse (warning : it's a complex query, the server may seem less responsive) provides this beauty of a snippet :
Code: Select all
[20:08:36.431] Blazing Bone Construct's Censure is refreshed by Fayzroll
[20:08:36.502] Fayzroll's Inquisition fades
[20:08:37.584] Fayzroll Censure Blazing Bone Construct 3936 (O: -1)
[20:08:38.737] Fayzroll's Avenging Wrath fades
[20:08:39.223] Blazing Bone Construct's Censure is refreshed by Fayzroll
[20:08:39.434] Fayzroll gains Inquisition from Fayzroll
[20:08:39.871] Fayzroll Censure Blazing Bone Construct 2523 (O: -1)
[20:08:42.023] Blazing Bone Construct's Censure is refreshed by Fayzroll
[20:08:42.077] Fayzroll Censure Blazing Bone Construct 3279 (O: -1)

Ergo AW/Inq are, as expected, independent aura classes.

From the same parse, this query provides another interesting snippet :
Code: Select all
[21:56:29.664] Fayzroll gains Landslide from Fayzroll
[21:56:33.503] Chimaeron's Ebon Plague fades
[21:56:35.273] Fayzroll's Landslide is refreshed by Fayzroll
[21:56:37.204] Fayzroll Exorcism Chimaeron 767 (O: -1)
[21:56:39.039] Fayzroll Exorcism Chimaeron 768 (O: -1)
[21:56:41.043] Fayzroll Exorcism Chimaeron 768 (O: -1)
[21:56:44.727] Fayzroll Exorcism Chimaeron 768 (O: -1)
[21:56:46.021] Chimaeron's Master Poisoner fades
[21:56:46.207] Fayzroll's Landslide is refreshed by Fayzroll
[21:56:48.938] Fayzroll Exorcism Chimaeron 710 (O: -1)
[21:56:54.322] Fayzroll's Landslide is refreshed by Fayzroll
[21:56:55.786] Fayzroll Exorcism Chimaeron 710 (O: -1)

Exorcism's DoT (via the corresponding glyph) does benefit from environmental auras.
Last edited by tlitp on Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:46 pm

I remembered I had a scroll of Mongoose in my bags, so I decided to go ahead and do some logging.

Gear and spec: I'm trying to find a profiler site that works for 4.0 and lets me save, for now, it's what's on my armory.
I just realised I did this with my T10 2-piece on, didn't mean to leave it equipped.

Attack Power: 3170
Spellpower: 972

Weapon: Brunnhildar Axe enchanted with Mongoose
Buffs: Insight, nothing else.

Details: Two combat sessions, first one is with level 1 Theramore dummies, HotR hiting 6 targets and AS hitting 3. Second session was only 2 level 80 dummies, might try to look for a group of 3 somewhere if more is needed. Both run until 100 AS casts. I wasn't sure if the levels on either of these were right for the tests, tbh, heh.

Edit: Hrm. The numbers on the log make it look like the AoE in Theramore was only hitting 4 dummies. I could swear I was getting [xxxxx, 6 hits] in my floating combat text.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/7wxs1a6ar8yjsxx9/
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby tlitp » Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:30 pm

Kysen :
  • both SotR and AS can serve as triggers for PPM-based effects
  • AS serves as trigger on a per-cast basis (rather than per-target)
  • the tooltip of AS is remarkably accurate, matching the observed range perfectly
  • the same is also valid for HotR (spell)
  • 2t10 still doesn't affect the spell component (2200 damage events, folks - it's beyond the realm of reasonable doubt)
  • SotR's base damage is ~610.2 (@85), as Theck already suggested


EDIT : it was supposed to be 2t10, rather than the damned glyph.
Last edited by tlitp on Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby theckhd » Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:19 pm

tlitp wrote:the glyph of HotR still doesn't affect the spell component (2200 damage events, folks - it's beyond the realm of reasonable doubt)


According to his armory, he doesn't have HotR glyphed (ShoR/SoT/CS). Thus, I don't think this parse contains anything that contradicts my earlier test. It does, however, confirm that the T10 bonus is not affecting the spell component, just as my test showed.
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby tlitp » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:01 am

Time to address the leftovers :
  • spec : any
  • gear : any (if you happen to have trinkets with static STR, use them freely)
  • seal : Insight
  • buffs/debuffs : none
  • target : probably Argent Tournament dummies
  • attack sequence : cast HoW on cooldown, weave in some J for mana replenishment
  • goal : stop after at least 50 HoW casts (100+ is preferred), upload the CL, report your total AP/SP
  • special notes : avoid STR/INT/AP/SP procs and spell damage debuffs

  • spec : any, with 1/2 JotJ (exactly one point) and 3/3 JotP
  • gear : holy/ret gear (whatever is available, just be sure to have a high amount of haste rating), having equipped a fast weapon (if it happens to be a SP weapon, even better)
  • seal : Righteousness
  • buffs/debuffs : none
  • target : any low-lvl dummy
  • attack sequence : cast CS/J on cooldown (that's right, no finisher)
  • goal : stop after at least 10 mins (15-20 is preferred), upload the CL, report your total AP/SP
  • special notes : avoid STR/INT/AP/SP procs and spell damage debuffs

Thanks.
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:08 am

Something's still bugging me about Kysen's log. Did they nerf Mongoose's PPM?

First combat session:
Mongoose procs: 23
Melee: 425
HotR: 366
AS: 300/3=100
SotR: 117
J: 58

With a 3.0 speed weapon, the proc rate should be 5% for a 1 PPM enchant. The melee swings alone should give us 21.25 procs in that case. We've got confirmed cases of each of the abilities listed proccing PPM enchants though, so we should see 53.3 procs, way above the observed value.

Similarly, the second combat session (ignoring avoids):
Mongoose procs: 29
Melee: 416
HotR: 369
AS: 196 hits, so ~98 casts
SotR: 125
J: 63

Again, we'd expect 53.6 procs for a 3.0-speed weapon and 1PPM. If the proc rate was nerfed to 0.5 PPM, then we'd expect about 26.7 procs, which is closer to the observed. The first session shows procs 20 seconds apart, so an ICD would have to be too short to explain the 50% cut in expected proc rate.

I would've thought the Rogues would have figured this all out by now, but a quick search of the EJ Rogue forum only turned up confirmations that it had no ICD and that uptimes "felt low."
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:31 am

tlitp wrote:Kysen :
  • both SotR and AS can serve as triggers for PPM-based effects
  • AS serves as trigger on a per-cast basis (rather than per-target)
  • the same is also valid for HotR (spell)


Quick questions so I can update the first post.

1) Did you mean that HotR (spell) triggers independently of HotR (phys)? I.e. each HotR cast gives 2 proc chances, regardless of # targets?

2) Are we comfortable saying that there is only one "PPM Enchant" model? I.e. Mongoose, Windwalk, Landslide all use the same PPM model, as does Avalanche's melee PPM portion? I suspect this is the case based on what we've seen in the past (and it would make sense from a coding perspective). That would mean they all share the same triggers and classifying enchants would be as simple as:

Landslide - 1 PPM
Windwalk - 1 PPM
Avalanche - 1 PPM + 10% spell

etc.
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby tlitp » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:05 am

1. Yeah, Mongoose appears to be changed in 4.0. It hasn't been tested thoroughly, so nobody knows the exact PPM. It's also nigh irrelevant, as both WW/LS are better.
2. Both AS and HotR can serve as triggers (one proc chance per ability cast). Exactly what triggers said effects is yet to be decided - presumably physHotR, and AS's primary hit.
3. Nobody knows for sure. All PPM-based effects presumably use the same triggers, being differentiated by the proc chance (i.e. PPM value) alone.

EDIT : many of the "current parse requests" are intertwined. #4 has already been carried out. These two buggers cover #2, #5, #6, and much of #1.
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:08 pm

Hammer of Wrath:

Gear and spec: Just my normal tanking stuff:
http://www.wowhead.com/profile=21807968

AP: 3254
SP: 997

Test: around 100 casts of HoW on a 'Melee Target' level 80 dummy. Had to start meleeing it to prevent it going out of combat and resetting to full health between casts. Mostly overkill of course.

There's a second player on the log, a BElf Rogue doing tournament quests on a mount. He did not hit my target, just one of the others nearby.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/2z03svxyto2y8ae2/

I can do this again in Ret or Holy gear if it'd be useful (those sets are pretty lacking, as I never use them).
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:39 pm

tlitp wrote:3. Nobody knows for sure. All PPM-based effects presumably use the same triggers, being differentiated by the proc chance (i.e. PPM value) alone.


Well, I'm mostly asking whether you think that we have enough data so far to say that it's a reasonable statement. If we saw evidence that Mongoose procced off of something that Windwalk didn't, for example, we'd be able to flatly refute the concept. But I don't think we've seen anything inconsistent with the idea of a single PPM model.

The reason I ask is that if we're pretty sure that's how it works, we can start drawing conclusions about the "general PPM model" from the different enchant tests, and eventually categorize all of the enchants the way I started to in my post.

This is particularly relevant to the enchant simulation, which I would like to update later this week/weekend.


tlitp wrote:EDIT : many of the "current parse requests" are intertwined. #4 has already been carried out. These two buggers cover #2, #5, #6, and much of #1.

Well, given that those "two buggers" are #2 and #6, I'd hope they cover them! #5 can be eliminated since #6 covers it (it's reasonable to assume that if 1/2 JotJ procs SoR, it will also proc SoT, I suppose, at least given the behavior of 2/2 JotJ).
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby tlitp » Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:12 pm

Kysen :
Code: Select all
          obs     exp
min (C)  9615  9611.1
max      5162  5164.1

The fits are quite good for the sample size at hand, so everything works as expected. There's no need for a confirmation, we should move on to the second test.

Theck : we didn't see any example to dispute the claim, so... they probably use the same triggers.
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:00 pm

Is there a 5+ PPM enchant currently in game? Or must we wait until Avalanche is available?
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:07 pm

Welp...

http://www.wowhead.com/profile=21808824
Mostly my poorly maintained Ret set, with some Haste pieces from Holy set thrown in (and Prot trinkets because my others were useless or procs). Yes, I'm missing some enchants and gems :lol:. Turns out I only own two fast weapons, so used Crusader's Glory (1.5 speed). Left my PvP glyphs in but respecced 1/2 JoJ and 3/3 JotP.

AP: 3675
SP: 1273

Somewhere around 15 minutes of CS/Judgement on a level 60 target dummy with SoRighteousness. Looks like there is exactly one Seal proc for every combat event.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/3wbcdf4vrxdsi3rf/
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