Remove Advertisements

Word of Glory - OP?

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby inthedrops » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:24 pm

I would like them to change vengeance instead of changing spells affected by vengeance.

In the future, when they do finally get around to adjusting vengeance, all the changes they're making today will need review.
inthedrops
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1281
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:19 am

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby Neptuno » Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:48 pm

yeah, i think it's reasonable for WoG to drop down to 10% of our HP, but I'd hope they'd buff Eternal Glory a little if they're making WoG heal a lot less for us.
User avatar
Neptuno
 
Posts: 258
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 12:28 pm

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby Kuridan » Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:02 pm

Slightly off topic, but you guys are forgetting that the threat situation was the same at the start of WotLK where we were miles ahead on threat. Vengance is there to help the end of expansion threat situation, where all the dpsers gear is maxed out and our gear is maxed for mitigation.
Kuridan
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:32 am

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby knaughty » Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:38 am

Kuridan wrote:Slightly off topic, but you guys are forgetting that the threat situation was the same at the start of WotLK where we were miles ahead on threat. Vengance is there to help the end of expansion threat situation, where all the dpsers gear is maxed out and our gear is maxed for mitigation.

Bzzzt. Wrong answer.

DPS gear has DPS stats on it.

Tanking gear has stamina & avoidance.

Vengeance is there to provide two things:
(1) Scaling with the stat that's on our tanking gear: Stamina.
(2) Scaling with raid buffs tanks get (health) to compensate for DPS raid buffs/debuffs (stats, crit, etc).

Thus: Tank threat scales now. It scales very, very well. Currently, every point of stamina is about 80% as effective as a point of strength for threat with a full vengeance stack.

The problem is that threat scales far too much with Vengeance. In ICC-hardmode gear, Vengeance is roughly +150% AP. At level 80 in T11 raid gear, Vengeance is +225% AP.

As we scale up with better gear, Vengeance will be an even larger component of our threat. In WotLK, my health more than doubled between Naxx and ICC (excluding the buff). So in Tier-15, with current scaling, a full Vengeance stack will be roughly at least +500% AP.

So we'll roughly be doing double our current threat in a few tiers, DPS will be doing roughly double as well. That bit is fine. There are four problems:

(1) Base tank DPS is too low. Without Vengeance tank threat is craptastic.
(2) Vengeance is far too large a component of out threat. It should be perhaps +50% threat, not double (80) or triple (85 in Tier 11) or quituple (85 in Tier 14)
(3) Vengeance is way too unreliable at 80. When the two hardest hitting mobs in-game (Halion-hard and LK-hard) can't reliably stack Vengeance to full, then the goddamn ability isn't tuned right.
(4) Vengeance stacks to slow and decays too fast.

The idea of Vengeance is fine. The implementation is massively mis-tuned.

Base unbuffed tank damage needs to be increased by at least 50%. Vengeance needs to cap at about half it's current cap. The Vengeance stack needs to stack to max after about five swings, start to decay after about 30 seconds out of combat and take another 30 seconds to vanish. If that's OP in PVP, turn it off in all PVP zones.
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby knaughty » Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:43 am

The new tweak to ShoR (reduce scaling with AP) and the justification (to make Vengeance less good) is yet more proof that Blizzard need to goddamn hire someone who studied maths or stats at University. Or buy them a fucking calculator.

The solution to Vengeance being too good is to FIX VENGEANCE not to start tweaking goddamn abilities so that they scale badly with AP. Because if they stuff up AP scaling then we're back to tank threat not scaling right and/or being the massively complicated cluster-fuck that they managed throughout WotLK.
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby theckhd » Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:07 am

knaughty wrote:The idea of Vengeance is fine. The implementation is massively mis-tuned.


That about sums up my opinion on it. Steady-state threat is irrelevant on any raid boss that hits hard enough to stack Vengeance, and incredibly difficult on anything that doesn't. It also makes trash and old content incredibly frustrating.

I wonder if they've considered a version of Vengeance that was passive, but converted STA to crit. That would increase DPS considerably without creating the opportunity for massive one-shot bursts, making it slightly more palatable for PvP.

To be honest, as much as I'd rather do more DPS, this implementation is annoying enough that I'd rather have Vengeance be a threat modifier than an AP value. The concern about vengeance stacking more quickly or reliably always seems to be a PvP argument. If Vengeance increased threat output by X% for 15 seconds after taking damage, it could be tuned to stack quickly (immediately) and decay slowly without having any effect on PvP. Our baseline DPS could also be buffed to compensate in that situation, since our AP wouldn't fluctuate as wildly.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7739
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby Vrimmel » Mon Nov 22, 2010 7:50 am

Blizz should know that there is something wrong when you as a tank need to have a raid boss hitting on you to keep aggro against similar geared dpsers. There are so many situations where it is lacking like:

- hcs
- questing
- trash
- bosses where you aren't hit you continously
- initial pull
- pvp unless everyone is hitting you (and why would they when you are the hardest player to kill with the least damage output when left alone). The part where it is useful is as flag carrier.
Vrimmel
 
Posts: 363
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:40 am

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby tobi12 » Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:22 am

The solution to it all: make vengeance always passive, always "stacked to max" and disabled in all pvp content.

Hope Blizz reads this...
tobi12
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:38 pm

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby Dantriges » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:34 am

Said it often enough but the only solution for all this pvp issues affecting pve is separating them. They had a year time, it´s probably not so hard.

Not enough health in pvp. Steal own code from ICC buff, scrap extra spellpower increase, perhaps leave healing increase if there isa probem, include stamina buff. The code is there. Open pvp is dead anyways and unbalanced. They already admitted that they can´t balance 1v1, dropped the 2v2 format. And in Open it doesn´t matter anyways. More important is if you get the drop on the other guy, if you keep your cool underfire if someone surprised you and how many buddies you´ve got.

Same with the vengeance issue. They already said, they will probably just turn it off.

Paladin interrupt? Tech so complicated? Please, seen more complicated spells and spell synergies in probably every spec. And doesn´t matter anyways. What kind of caster will close in for the kill? I am not pvper but it seems a melee range interrupt won´t unbalance anything. The holy paladin probably doesn´t want to be close and personal enemy casters, closing in fr an interrupt takes time and he won´t do his job properly on the run, healing people. Good question if you pull off, concentrating on the movements of the enemy caster and the enemy team closing in on the suicidal healer who runs into the enemy line and keeping up your own team with the limited tools you have while moving. And after that you are more or less where the other team wants you if they are more clever than a bunch of donkeys. Congratulations ifyou can pull it off, you deserved it. Prot seems to be weak in pvp at the moment anyways and retribution already has an interrupt.

A the moment the whole design stuff and tweaking looks like bandaid fixes without fixing core problems. If it´s a problem that we have to many AP with vengeanceand Shor crits for an absurd amount, fix vengeance. The whole thing looks more or les like a surgeon removing your arm, because you have a wide open bleeding cut on your shoulder.
If they want their artistic vision of how the classes should be, they can throw it in the bonfire together with their tunnel vision and lack of feedback to consumer feedback and dance around it naked.
Last edited by Dantriges on Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
Dantriges
 
Posts: 1252
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:39 am

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby Dantriges » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:40 am

tobi12 wrote:The solution to it all: make vengeance always passive, always "stacked to max" and disabled in all pvp content.

Hope Blizz reads this...


Perhaps they want a ramp up time so that DPS goes a bit more slowly instead of maximum burst at the beginning.
Like frostmage DPS. Mirror image, prepot, Frozen Orb, Icy Veins, freeze, Deep Freeze, ColdSnap repeat, throw in Ice lances to use up FoF procs, then hope the tank has enough aggro so you don´t have to use invis and lose dps time...

For the other specs it is more or less the same.
Dantriges
 
Posts: 1252
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:39 am

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby Rasmfrackn » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:58 am

tobi12 wrote:The solution to it all: make vengeance always passive, always "stacked to max" and disabled in all pvp content.

Hope Blizz reads this...


The fact that a tank needs to be getting hit to do their maximum dps gives Blizzard a little lattitude on giving that tank a little more damage than their " damage * survivability " product would otherwise allow. That is, you wouldn't want to have extra tank specs in your raid because they always do damage as if they were tanking and are that much easier to keep alive.

I made an accidental manifesto about this on the oforums a few weeks ago. Nobody really grasped what I was saying because I wrote about 10 paragraphs. :) Basically, I think tank survivability is roughly 2x a dps class with the new cataclysm mechanics, as opposed to like the 3-4x it was in LK. I think that means we deserve a dps baseline of about 50% of a dps class. Based on that, I think our threat mod should be 2x not 3x and they should balance around that. (I'm told that part was distracting from my other points, but I think it's integral.) Finally, I don't want to go from 50% of a dps class' dps up past 100% like towilee has been showing. I want to go up to maybe 80% when I'm tanking a raid boss.

My proposal was 2% health as AP at all times (brings up the floor) and only 2% more health gained while taking hits to the face (brings down the ceiling). That'd change my personal AP swing from 3500->11000 to something like 5000->6500, which seems a lot more balanceable.
Rasmfrackn
Dwarf Paladin
Icecrown Server
Eng/Scribe/Masochist
User avatar
Rasmfrackn
 
Posts: 1014
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:11 pm

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby towelliee » Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:50 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXXjyN4oO1I

wog healing in arenas...at 85
towelliee
 
Posts: 1160
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 8:09 am

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:08 pm

towellie your videos make me rofl
Image
Turn In, an NPC interaction automator - http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... rn-in.aspx
User avatar
Sabindeus
Moderator
 
Posts: 10472
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby Braundo » Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:15 pm

10 minutes in a 2v2? Holy god I would kill myself.
User avatar
Braundo
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 511
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:14 am
Location: Wiping your raids

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby towelliee » Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:17 pm

Braundo wrote:10 minutes in a 2v2? Holy god I would kill myself.



And the Irony is I was keeping the HEALER alive
towelliee
 
Posts: 1160
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 8:09 am

PreviousNext

Return to Cataclysm

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there are 0 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 0 guests (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests