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Where do the warriors go?

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Where do the warriors go?

Postby Scotty » Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:36 pm

Wanting more flexibility for Cata I rolled and leveled a warrior tank. No more bother with the new raid lockout scheme :lol:

The leveling took longer than I'd planned due to RL and Guild commitments so I only dinged 80 last night. And so it's time for heroic 5's to get a bit of practice working with various different types of DPS etc.

Given that I leveled via questing (one last look at the world before the shattering) I felt it wise to do some research before I clicked the LFD button. I started searching for the theorycraft on the warrior priority system (formally known as rotation) but after several hours all I've found is opinion. What's most disconcerting is that I'm finding threads where there isn't a consensus ... people are expressing different opinions on how they do this or that with none of the facts we're used to here.

I've long held the opinion that Maintankadin provides a resource which is far superior to any of the other sites. With Theck's brilliant work and Knaughty distilling and translating it for the masses, with Digren guiding us on how to tweak our gear and everyone else who brings value to this forum (ie I can't be naming names indefinately, so I apologise if I neglected to include more names of the many who participate) Maintankadin is clearly everything a Prot Pally needs. I want to thank everyone who has made it so.

I've been to EJ (there's no thread for Prot Warriors at the moment). I've been to Tankspot. I've read countless threads and blog posts. But I can't find the theorycraft.

Have I missed it? Can someone point to me the URL that I've somehow missed? Surely someone is doing the number crunching which I'm not qualified to do?

Where do the warriors go?
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Re: Where do the warriors go?

Postby bldavis » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:40 pm

iirc there was a couple theorycraft threads on tankspot but they are few and far between for 4.0

still Tankspot is your best bet for warriors, i know there was at least a enchant guide last time i was there
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Re: Where do the warriors go?

Postby Levantine » Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:53 pm

It's annoying, but this is probably the worst time to be looking for theorycraft. Most of it people still don't actually know. Tankspot and EJ are normally your best bets, but if they have nothing then I'm not really sure sorry.
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Re: Where do the warriors go?

Postby Scotty » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:23 am

Thanks for the input guys.

I continued my research, which took me all over the web :lol:

For those who are currently looking here's what I was able to pull together. There's nothing to really back this up the way we have here (courtesy of Theck) but it's the distillation of a lot of posts which tend to agree. Please note - there are many posts which tend to disagree with this. Hopefully we'll see some detailed theorycraft down the line which will end the disagreements.

Single Target Priorities

Revenge (when procced obviously)
Shield Slam (especially when procced)
Devastate
Heroic Strike (when rage is > 60)

Keep Shield Block up as much as possible.

Note: My personal inclination is to view Devastate as the 'filler' ... given that it applies Sunder and is pretty cheap.
Also please note - this doesn't include Victory Rush (if specced into Impending Victory) because I don't see much value in that talent at this point in time.


AoE Priorities

This one has a starting rotation, assuming your specced into Blood and Thunder (which I am)

Rend -> Thunderclap -> Shockwave -> Cleave

Then the Priorities

Rend (if it drops off ... Thunderclap refreshes it though)
Thunderclap
Shockwave
Cleave

Keep Shield Block up

Note: I still suck at tab-targetting :roll: but that's the approach to take - tab through the pack laying damage on any mob which you need to boost your threat on.

Feel free to comment if you have better info :lol:
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Re: Where do the warriors go?

Postby Aanar » Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:10 pm

I've been leveling a warrior up via random dungeons in the past month or so. He's only 67 though so I don't have shockwave yet.

So many warrior abilities hit an extra mob (revenge w/ talents?, devestate w/ glyph, cleave w/ glyph) that a warrior is strongest on 3 mob packs and also very good on 4 to 5 mob pakcs. 1 and 2 mobs are fine. With large packs though, you're probably going to feel rather ineffective. I have groups get ansy wanting to pull more than 1 group at a time, but it's really not effective because you dont' have the tools to be able to hold agro on 10 mobs through a moonkin or mage aoeing. They'd have to give you a 10 second head start, so you may as well just pull one pack at a time.


What I've found is that if the only thing hitting a mob is thunderclap, you're only going to keep the healer from getting agro. Any dps is going to pull off you unless they're smart enough to assist you or look at omen. So pulls of anything more than about 5-6 mobs are a real pita. (Hopefully shockwave makes it more manageable)

Packs of 3 (or less) are pretty easy with the cleave glyph (hit 3 targets instead of 2) and the one that puts sunder up on an ajacent mob. If the mobs are all in thunderclap range then you can charge, thunderclap & cleave (cleave is off the gcd) and have a decent cushion from aoe with 1 GCD. Follow up with tab-targetting Shield slam, revenge, devestate. Shield slam will do more theat on one mob, but devestate puts sunder up on another mob which can be a big help, so sometimes it's helpful to put devestate ahead of shieldslam or revenge.

If the mobs are spread out, I usually charge -> shield slam. Once three are in range, hit cleave. When they're all in range, hit thunderclap. With 2 casters spread out, I usually charge to one, shield bash them to silence them so you can drag them all over to the other caster. More then two casters, and hopefully you have a place to LoS them into a pack. And hopefully your dps cooperate and don't go hog wild while you do this. Spread out casters are the worst. About all you can do is run to one, hit him, run to the next, hit him, etc to keep agro off the healer. By this point, usually the dps have agro, so you're then tring to pull off them. At least with casters they do almost the same damage to a dps as you so it doesn't matter too much.

When you have 4 or 5 mobs, I try to watch which mob(s) don't get hit by cleave on the pull and immediately switch to them to hit them with something (shield slam or devestate usually) since just shockwave isn't going to cut it.

DPS will very rarely give you the luxury of being able to rend before thunderclap on a pull. Rend is also spread out over time, so it really isn't that great. Any pack of 10+ in a dungeon are going to have mostly normal, non-elite mobs, which will be dead before rend really does anything. Your best hope is going to be ignoring rend and tab targetting like mad and using cleave and thunderclap on CD, and then shield slam, revenge (hits 2x), and devestate (hits 2x). On smaller packs, I often just skip thunderclap after the initial one for the 10% slow. A devestate in its place is often a better choice.

Hope that helps.

It's more about quickly finding targets that you need to put threat on than it is about learning the ideal rotation. After all, whether you have a threat lead of 1 or 100k doesn't really matter as long as you're not capping your dps. A starter tank is going to cap tier 10 dps no matter how perfect your rotation. About all you can do is mark the pulls and pump everything you can into skull (hit thunderclap on cd to keep enough threat for the healer) and if dps pull off you, it's their fault.
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Re: Where do the warriors go?

Postby Jedah » Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:58 pm

The best website for warrior info is Maintankadin. Tankspot has sucked since WOTLK launched, and EJ has never been very good for warriors in general (with the exception of Landsoul's spreadsheet).

I was a warrior tank for all of Wrath and maintankadin provided the best information on the web. Most of the paladin theorycrafting applies to warriors as well. Sometimes Theck even directly talks about how certain things effect the tanking classes differently.

There are several threads that will pop up in the offspec forums about warrior tanking as well and you can get some good info in those (I've posted in several of them myself).

Regarding your proposed rotation and spec, it's mostly solid with a few exceptions -> Blood & Thunder is not a wise investment at this point in time, in my opinion. The AOE threat it generates is largely wasted, and the points are better spent elsewhere for single-target effectiveness.

If you're really in love with Blood & Thunder, however, I believe you're still making a mistake: if you hit Rend first, you're wasting a GCD where you could be using thunderclap instead, and you're going to get some mobs ripped off you before you can use your next global. Start with TC & Cleave, worry about Rend later. It really only matters for trash that's going to live a while anyway, you can afford to wait a few seconds to spread it around.

In the end, tab target cleave is what keeps those mobs on you, it's the butter that goes on your slice of Thunderclap Bread. And then Shockwave is the peanut butter ;)
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Re: Where do the warriors go?

Postby d503 » Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:35 pm

Scotty wrote:Note: My personal inclination is to view Devastate as the 'filler' ... given that it applies Sunder and is pretty cheap.
Also please note - this doesn't include Victory Rush (if specced into Impending Victory) because I don't see much value in that talent at this point in time.


Don't devalue Devastate too much - it procs Sword & Board, which is pretty key to good threat.

RE: Blood & Thunder - I was able to make a pretty balanced spec that sacrifices some utility but gets all the single and multi-target threat abilities (armory here: http://goo.gl/h0rwY).

It's definitely doable. Impending Victory doesn't seem that great, only because of the mob health requirement...certainly not worth two talent points that can spent elsewhere. You really won't be HS that much in heroics, so Incite loses its luster.

But the point of this whole, sad thing is, there doesn't seem to be anyone doing the math for warriors. I wish there was a Theck for all tanking classes!
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Re: Where do the warriors go?

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:13 pm

Hope you don't mind if I hijack this thread a little bit, but I didn't really see the need to make a new one, since this one has a similar discussion.

I recently created a Belf War, and have started leveling her as Arms (that's the 2h spec, right?) I was just curious... since I got Mortal Strike at lvl 10, should I be bothering with Strike (since they share a cd)? Or is MS intended to replace Strike? I'm level 19 at the moment, so I don't especially have a lot of abilities to work with, but I'm not sure if the damage output for MS (4.5s cd) is higher than Strike (3s cd) with their varied cds.

Also, plan on leveling a Worgen Warrior (Fury/Prot) so if you have any helpful tips that direction, it would be appreciated.
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Re: Where do the warriors go?

Postby bldavis » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:58 pm

it sounds like strike si a filler spell until you get your talents

and mortal strike is your spec defining ability, so i would think you should replace strike with MS (my warrior si lvl 81 currently and with finals coming up i havent had much time for alts other then her)

as far as fury/prot leveling, i would suggest going arms/prot until you get bloodthirst and then get the beefiest weapons you can find to help offset some of the squishyness of being fury.
also keep your eyes out for 2 nice 2hders if you decide to go titans grip at 70 (is it 70 now? i need to level some alts bad!) but from what i hear most fury warriors are going SMF instead of TG just to stick with the 1hders they already have
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Re: Where do the warriors go?

Postby Levantine » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:42 am

Wow, you are out of touch, bld. Bloodthirst is Fury's level 10 ability. Also, lol, Fury being squishy. No such thing as being squishy when you heal for 30% (glyphed, ofc) of your HP every mob as well as having access to Blood Craze and BT healing.

Levelling a Warrior is fucking easy as these days with Victory Rush and level 10 MS/BT/SS. What's a downtime?
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Re: Where do the warriors go?

Postby Barathorn » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:13 am

For those of you with news warriors under level 30 I highly advise running as Arms and participating in WSG and AB Call to arms weekends. You get about 1/2 level for a win after level 20.

Strike is a filler but beware the overuse of MS which is a trap many low level warriors fall into.
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Re: Where do the warriors go?

Postby Skye1013 » Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:04 am

Barathorn wrote:For those of you with news warriors under level 30 I highly advise running as Arms and participating in WSG and AB Call to arms weekends. You get about 1/2 level for a win after level 20.

Strike is a filler but beware the overuse of MS which is a trap many low level warriors fall into.


I'd spend more time in the BGs, but on my current connection BGs =

"Oh look, an opponent!"
*spam abilities*
*I die*
"You can't do that, you're dead."
"You can't do that, you're dead."
"You can't do that, you're dead."
"You can't do that, you're dead."
"You can't do that, you're dead."

And I try to use MS enough to keep the debuff up, but otherwise have been using Heroic Strike. I can only assume that at some point I'll have enough abilities that I'm not likely to use Thunderclap in a dps spec?
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Re: Where do the warriors go?

Postby Jedah » Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:01 am

you'll eventually be using Rend, Overpower, MS, Slam (and much later colossus smash). Thunderclap will not be part of your single target rotation, but it's still a powerful tool for Arms AOE
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