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If you want to tank in Cataclysm - Roll a DK now.

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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If you want to tank in Cataclysm - Roll a DK now.

Postby Xequecal » Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:17 am

I've mostly kept my mouth shut about this in hopes that it gets changed, but it's becoming increasingly unlikely that it will. This isn't completely meant to be a whine post, but anyone who wants to progress through content is doing themselves a major disservice by not using all DK tanks. Paladins might be worth an OT slot due to raid wall, but DKs are the tanking overlords. The tank imbalance is worse than it was in 3.0, but unlike 3.0, we're not in the situation where all raid content except one fight is faceroll. You will get benched in favor of DKs unless your GM really really likes you. Warriors compare to DKs as tanks about as well as hunter pets compare to Warriors. It's BAD. I'll go down the list of problems:

1. DKs have better STA/HP scaling than every other tank. They get 8% + 9% + 2% STA from BP/talents/runeforge, compared to 15% for PAL/WAR. This results in a ~10k HP advantage in heroic blues and a ~15k HP advantage in 359 epics. This imbalance will only get worse with gear.

2. DKs have better base damage reduction than every other tank. (13.52%, vs. 10% for PAL/WAR)

3. DKs have more armor than every other tank. In 359 epics they have a 2-3k armor advantage over Paladins and Warriors due to the runeforge and Blood Presence outscaling shield armor. Again, this will only get worse with future content.

4. The DK mastery is so overpowered it's fucking ludicrous. With 3000 Mastery rating, which is very much attainable in heroic blues and crafted/rep epics without sacrificing stamina, the shield is 155% of the amount healed. This gives a DK the ability to heal himself for 45% of his max HP and then put up a bubble worth ~70% of his max HP.....every six seconds on a max death strike. What's more important is with high mastery the heal + shield is over 100% of your total HP, so on any MOB that can't three-shot you, you don't even need a healer. There are many 25-man normal mode bosses where if you use a DK tank, you do not even need a tank healer. Out of all scaling problems, this one is the absolute worst. Since Stamina, armor, and Mastery are itemized independently on gear, further gear tiers increasing the mastery number will allow ever-increasing damage to be taken without needing any heals at all, as Death Strike and the shield essentially double-dip off stamina and mastery rating. For example, if a DK were to reach 4000 mastery rating, he could perma-tank a MOB that hit for 50% of his total HP forever without ever needing a healer.

5. DKs have a whopping five extra cooldowns over all the other tanks. Unless the fight involves heavy magic damage, in which case they have six. Cataclysm is quite heavy on the magic DPS with the dragon/elemental theme.

6. Many fight mechanics interact very well with DK cooldowns. The best example is that magic damage does not remove bone shield charges. Some bosses have pure magic damage phases where the DK can just sit there with an extra 20% DR that lasts the whole phase.

7. The "healer mana mattering" aspect means the DK and his self-healing is just vastly superior to any other option when it comes to efficiency. Using a DK means you can cut a healer or switch a tank healer to raid healing. Hell, with Blood Parasite the DK can even help heal the raid!
Last edited by Xequecal on Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: If you want to tank in Cataclysm - Roll a DK now.

Postby Steve » Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:01 am

They also have higher avoidance, though my reasons for pointing that out are too numerous to ...enumerate.
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Re: If you want to tank in Cataclysm - Roll a DK now.

Postby Levantine » Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:18 am

Not to be a dick or anything, but does this thread serve and actual purpose other than "Wahhh the sky is falling and Blizzard hates Pal/War/Dru tanks!"?

I haven't been in the beta for quite a while (gogo net troubles followed by pc troubles) so I'm not sure of the validity of your claims, but if the discrepancies are as you claim, do you honestly think Blizzard will let them go live without retuning numbers?
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Re: If you want to tank in Cataclysm - Roll a DK now.

Postby Xequecal » Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:25 am

Levantine wrote:Not to be a dick or anything, but does this thread serve and actual purpose other than "Wahhh the sky is falling and Blizzard hates Pal/War/Dru tanks!"?

I haven't been in the beta for quite a while (gogo net troubles followed by pc troubles) so I'm not sure of the validity of your claims, but if the discrepancies are as you claim, do you honestly think Blizzard will let them go live without retuning numbers?


Yes, absolutely. They put 3.0 live featuring DKs with 70% avoidance in the first gear tier and substantially more armor and HP than anyone else. They will of course get nerfed in 4.1, but the discrepancy is so large that I'm fearing a rehash of 3.1 where the nerfs weren't enough and DKs got to totally dominate tanking for over half the expansion's content.
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Re: If you want to tank in Cataclysm - Roll a DK now.

Postby Levantine » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:10 am

And you think they haven't learned something about DK balance from having them be unarguably the best tank for two tiers of content? There's still time before Cata's even released for numbers to change. If it stays so woefully unbalanced through 4.0 then, I dunno, I'll give you a cookie. I just doubt it'll happen for what, the third time?
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Re: If you want to tank in Cataclysm - Roll a DK now.

Postby culhag » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:55 am

So what if DKs are better tanks ? I'm a paladin.
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Re: If you want to tank in Cataclysm - Roll a DK now.

Postby Dantriges » Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:05 am

Levantine wrote:And you think they haven't learned something about DK balance from having them be unarguably the best tank for two tiers of content? There's still time before Cata's even released for numbers to change. If it stays so woefully unbalanced through 4.0 then, I dunno, I'll give you a cookie. I just doubt it'll happen for what, the third time?


Yes?

The balance of the clases is not something they slowly learn, it´s a wild rollercoaster ride. If it´s actually so imbalanced as the OP states. I wouldn´t surprise me at all.

So they should fix the problems, if there are some now, so they get at least some numbers to put them into a semblance of balance. Otherwise, if the imbalance is so great the nerfhammer will probably hit too hard.

So the guild do itself a disservice kicking all other tanks, unless they are new, I am pretty sure DKs will be hit hard. Probably the only reason it didn´t show up until now, because you take the tanks you have and trust.

I am a bit surprised where this new attitude of "Trust Blizzard, they know what they do," comes from.
Last edited by Dantriges on Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If you want to tank in Cataclysm - Roll a DK now.

Postby Dantriges » Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:07 am

culhag wrote:So what if DKs are better tanks ? I'm a paladin.


Wait outside with the other rejects for farm content.
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Re: If you want to tank in Cataclysm - Roll a DK now.

Postby Aanar » Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:53 am

The post does come off a bit of "the sky is falling" but as several people have pointed out, class imbalance can stick around for a stuborn amount of time. Personally, I've stopped trying to fight it and just go with it. I've been working on leveling up all 6 classes that can tank and/or heal while waiting for caty -- just have to finish up my 76 shaman and 66 warrior. There's no way I'd be able to keep them all with current tier gear but it seems easier to catch up than to wait around for a fix if my favorite class is considered "broken" at the moment.

I haven't really played my DK much after hitting 80, but this post makes me want to dust him off and get some practice in with tanking on him. :-) Thanks for the good summary on where DK tanks are sitting.
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Re: If you want to tank in Cataclysm - Roll a DK now.

Postby Darielle » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:07 am

QQ thread is a QQ thread.

I'll happily continue being a Paladin and being good at it, tyvm.

I am a bit surprised where this new attitude of "Trust Blizzard, they know what they do," comes from.


I should point out that as of their comment in the mega tanking changes thread, they flat out said that DK's aren't harder to model and they don't have enough data from Beta and that while they're not convinced DK's are AS OP as the forums believe, they're keeping an eye on it.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... eNo=31#609
DKs are just harder to model and we haven't had as many of them tanking the beta raids. Our hunch is that they aren't as overpowered as this forum thread seems to believe, but we'll see after more testing.
Last edited by Darielle on Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: If you want to tank in Cataclysm - Roll a DK now.

Postby Invisusira » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:08 am

Xequecal wrote:I've mostly kept my mouth shut about this in hopes that it gets changed, but it's becoming increasingly unlikely that it will.

Because pre-release beta is the same thing as "written in stone."

Those of us who were tanking in Vanilla see your whining about another class having better tanking stats and laugh heartily at you. Good day sir.
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Re: If you want to tank in Cataclysm - Roll a DK now.

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:09 am

Xequecal wrote:I've mostly kept my mouth shut about this in hopes that it gets changed,


And you should have continued to do so, or at least voiced your concerns in a less inflammatory manner.
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