Block-capping, unfortunate future.

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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Neptuno » Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:45 am

Digren wrote:Moreover, I chose that wording because of crushing blows. In BC and early, a typical, blocked hit was the norm, but if a paladin or warrior allowed an unblocked hit through it would instead be a crushing blow - +50% damage. That was the effect, that was how we talked about it, that's how we compared the damage it caused.

An unblocked hit in Cata will be +70-83% damage compared to a typical blocked hit. If you had been playing a paladin long enough, talking of it in these terms would be natural, not "marketing speak".


Yep, BC I was block capped just like you thank you very much, that still has nothing to do with looking at damage reduction and saying the reverse calculation, more over with the crushing blows NOT being in the explained math justifying your 70-83% since crushing blows are 50% more yielding over 100% more, but to consider block capping vs mobs 4 levels higher is just beyond the extreme of trying to justify your first statement. I have tanked with my paladin since they were available to my faction though it is true I've only been looking on here seriously since around 3.0 when it became my main. I've been here for the last 2 years in which time these terms aren't seen or if they were came across the same reaction I gave them, so if you feel they are mainstream enough to use after so much time hidden in the back room, more power to you. It still doesn't change that 40% damage reduction's 40% damage reduction. When you look at how hard a boss's hits are in databases, you don't start with how much it's lessened by armor or block, you get told what it is unmitigated. The 80k hit that's 70% harder than the blocked hit helps people figure out appropriate health pools how? The 70% isn't used anywhere in the math other than a reverse equation on the % block reduction. Clouding the numbers with rhetoric of the solutions to 2 expansions ago's calculations won't be natural until we see the level 89 bosses.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Noradin » Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:53 am

Neptuno wrote:
Digren wrote:Moreover, I chose that wording because of crushing blows. In BC and early, a typical, blocked hit was the norm, but if a paladin or warrior allowed an unblocked hit through it would instead be a crushing blow - +50% damage. That was the effect, that was how we talked about it, that's how we compared the damage it caused.

An unblocked hit in Cata will be +70-83% damage compared to a typical blocked hit. If you had been playing a paladin long enough, talking of it in these terms would be natural, not "marketing speak".


Yep, BC I was block capped just like you thank you very much, that still has nothing to do with looking at damage reduction and saying the reverse calculation, more over with the crushing blows NOT being in the explained math justifying your 70-83% since crushing blows are 50% more yielding over 100% more, but to consider block capping vs mobs 4 levels higher is just beyond the extreme of trying to justify your first statement. I have tanked with my paladin since they were available to my faction though it is true I've only been looking on here seriously since around 3.0 when it became my main. I've been here for the last 2 years in which time these terms aren't seen or if they were came across the same reaction I gave them, so if you feel they are mainstream enough to use after so much time hidden in the back room, more power to you. It still doesn't change that 40% damage reduction's 40% damage reduction. When you look at how hard a boss's hits are in databases, you don't start with how much it's lessened by armor or block, you get told what it is unmitigated. The 80k hit that's 70% harder than the blocked hit helps people figure out appropriate health pools how? The 70% isn't used anywhere in the math other than a reverse equation on the % block reduction. Clouding the numbers with rhetoric of the solutions to 2 expansions ago's calculations won't be natural until we see the level 89 bosses.


We don't play the game for the database, we use the database for the game.
If we play we will get hit and it is totally irrelevant what some database says the unmitigatet hit would do if we never get to experience it.
Comparing hits to the standard hit (which most likely will be a blocked hit) while wearing the expected gear is much more helpful.
Maybe you plan to tank those bosses sitting naked with your back to them and resurection sickness or something, but I care about how to improve my tanking abilites and adjusting/selecting the gear from what will be available.
"A unblocked hit would do x% more damage than a blocked one" is a much more interesting statement than "A unblocked hit will amount to y% total damage reduction while a blocked hit will be z% total damage reduction, just search database xy for some datamined or estimated values for the unmitigated damage possible".

Telling us about how people supposedly look things up in databases but are again supposedly unable to do the basic math required to use them seems much more like rethoric to me than alluding to well documented mechanics used in the past.

Edit: Maybe the problem is that this math is too basic. I had this in 6th (or earlier? I helped my cousin recently and she was 6th grade) grade in school. I forget lots of things I learned that far back.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Digren » Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:32 am

Xequecal wrote:I did the math on this myself:

Boots of Sullen Rock - 159 mastery
Great Turtle Wrap - 126 mastery
Sandguard Bracers - (45 mastery)
Engineering helm - 416 mastery
Elementium Earthguard - 127 mastery
Earthshape Pauldrons - 130 mastery
Alchemy trinket - 213 mastery
Beech Green Belt - 150 mastery
Carrier Wave Pendant - 120 mastery
Legguards of Winnowing Wind - 205 mastery
Fingers of Light - 150 mastery
Felsen's Ring of Resolve - 112 mastery
Ring of Three Lights - 113 mastery
Chestplate of the Steadfast - 182 mastery
Relic - 72 Mastery
Mastery pot + Mixology - 338 mastery
Mastery enchants - 115 mastery

This is 2773 mastery rating. All the gear pieces are either 346 blues, 5-man reputation epics, or Alch/Eng profession epics. This provides +35.5% block. Add in 18% from base mastery, 5% base block, 5% miss and you need 36.5% combined dodge + parry to cap block. You can gem for almost all Stamina if you want, gemming for Mastery is not needed. It's even easier if you're willing to buy all the BoE BS epics, but those will be ridiculously expensive because they require 3 BoP heroic orbs each.

Note that this equipment list is missing a mainhand weapon and the second trinket. I assume you want to use a sta or armor trinket in the second trinket slot, but you could probably get even more mastery from the weapon slot, I just can't seem to find any tank weapons with mastery in what's already been spoiled.

The problem with this plan is that you are unequivocally stating that, at each tier of gear, you'll only choose the piece itemized for mastery. Is that your plan? Because that greatly limits the ability of many players to gear up by taking "what they can get".

I think reforging was specifically intended so players didn't have to feel like one particular pieces was "best in slot".
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Digren » Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:36 am

Neptuno wrote:
Digren wrote:Moreover, I chose that wording because of crushing blows. In BC and early, a typical, blocked hit was the norm, but if a paladin or warrior allowed an unblocked hit through it would instead be a crushing blow - +50% damage. That was the effect, that was how we talked about it, that's how we compared the damage it caused.

An unblocked hit in Cata will be +70-83% damage compared to a typical blocked hit. If you had been playing a paladin long enough, talking of it in these terms would be natural, not "marketing speak".


Yep, BC I was block capped just like you thank you very much, that still has nothing to do with looking at damage reduction and saying the reverse calculation, more over with the crushing blows NOT being in the explained math justifying your 70-83% since crushing blows are 50% more yielding over 100% more, but to consider block capping vs mobs 4 levels higher is just beyond the extreme of trying to justify your first statement. I have tanked with my paladin since they were available to my faction though it is true I've only been looking on here seriously since around 3.0 when it became my main. I've been here for the last 2 years in which time these terms aren't seen or if they were came across the same reaction I gave them, so if you feel they are mainstream enough to use after so much time hidden in the back room, more power to you. It still doesn't change that 40% damage reduction's 40% damage reduction. When you look at how hard a boss's hits are in databases, you don't start with how much it's lessened by armor or block, you get told what it is unmitigated. The 80k hit that's 70% harder than the blocked hit helps people figure out appropriate health pools how? The 70% isn't used anywhere in the math other than a reverse equation on the % block reduction. Clouding the numbers with rhetoric of the solutions to 2 expansions ago's calculations won't be natural until we see the level 89 bosses.

Your words, they make no sense. Boss hits in databases?

When I talk about boss damage, I want to know: A) normal hit size; B) spike hit size; C) frequency of spikes. That's what matters.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Xequecal » Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:35 pm

Digren wrote:The problem with this plan is that you are unequivocally stating that, at each tier of gear, you'll only choose the piece itemized for mastery. Is that your plan? Because that greatly limits the ability of many players to gear up by taking "what they can get".

I think reforging was specifically intended so players didn't have to feel like one particular pieces was "best in slot".


Uhm, higher tiers of gear will have greater stats, so you won't need mastery on every gear piece to stay block capped.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Digren » Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:39 pm

Xequecal wrote:
Digren wrote:The problem with this plan is that you are unequivocally stating that, at each tier of gear, you'll only choose the piece itemized for mastery. Is that your plan? Because that greatly limits the ability of many players to gear up by taking "what they can get".

I think reforging was specifically intended so players didn't have to feel like one particular pieces was "best in slot".


Uhm, higher tiers of gear will have greater stats, so you won't need mastery on every gear piece to stay block capped.

Sure. How many slots do you free up each tier? One? Two? That's a lot of the expansion that you're still locked. It might be different if there is more inflation, but remember that:

A) There will be less inflation in Cata than in WotLK, due to the reduction in stratification from three iLvls per tier to just two.

B) Bosses at each tier will require different rating levels for some stats - not all level 88 bosses will be the same. Will mastery rating be one of these that will scale with tier? I don't think we don't know yet.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:40 pm

Neptuno wrote:I've been here for the last 2 years in which time these terms aren't seen or if they were came across the same reaction I gave them, so if you feel they are mainstream enough to use after so much time hidden in the back room, more power to you.
This is completely false. It's quite common to compare damage taken, in fact that's often easier because mitigation fluctuates during a fight as you use different abilities. Almost any post fight analysis where we are looking at more than one attempt we'll compare damage taken.

We don't generally express different amounts of mitigation by equating them to relative percentages of hit sizes as was done here, because a relative comparison like that needs that baseline value to be compared. However, crushing blows caused a fixed percentage increase in the damage, which is enough to show its affect relative to blocking, and it's something we are familiar with.

Also, avoidance math tends to work in a similar matter, any time you hear someone say that avoidance scales quickly, it's in reference to math that compares how often you get hit (as opposed to how often you are missed, which is merely your avoidance value) at different levels of avoidance.

I would say that the application of that math here was not typical, but it was used to illustrate a good point. That math in general though is quite common.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Xequecal » Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:30 am

Digren wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Digren wrote:The problem with this plan is that you are unequivocally stating that, at each tier of gear, you'll only choose the piece itemized for mastery. Is that your plan? Because that greatly limits the ability of many players to gear up by taking "what they can get".

I think reforging was specifically intended so players didn't have to feel like one particular pieces was "best in slot".


Uhm, higher tiers of gear will have greater stats, so you won't need mastery on every gear piece to stay block capped.

Sure. How many slots do you free up each tier? One? Two? That's a lot of the expansion that you're still locked. It might be different if there is more inflation, but remember that:

A) There will be less inflation in Cata than in WotLK, due to the reduction in stratification from three iLvls per tier to just two.

B) Bosses at each tier will require different rating levels for some stats - not all level 88 bosses will be the same. Will mastery rating be one of these that will scale with tier? I don't think we don't know yet.


Mastery is a far better secondary stat than dodge or parry, in literally every way. Remember that Mastery has increasing returns (the "last" point of Mastery is worth roughly twice as much as the "first" point) just like avoidance but doesn't diminish like avoidance. Given how ridiculously high threat is I doubt you'll need to stack hit or expertise. I'm pretty sure getting Mastery to the block cap will be the #1 priority of tank gearing at any tier.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Sabindeus » Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:16 am

Xequecal wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:I think that's just the mastery that comes naturally with the way that gear is itemized.


Sure, plus a bunch of enchants, plus using mastery trinkets instead of stamina trinkets, etc.


The alchemy trinket: http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/80508/life ... ist-stone/

You're not giving up any stamina. I specifically did not even list anything for the second trinket slot for exactly this reason, if you wanted you could equip a straight +mastery trinket there and get over 3000 mastery, but I suspected people wouldn't want to do that. The two mastery enchants are in slots where +sta enchants are not available. (at least not STA enchants from Cataclysm, in any event) You do give up the 300 (450) STA flask to use that potion, but you can use a 900 (1450 with Mixology) armor pot alongside it, so it's not a massive loss. The tank flask is horribly underitemized anyway, the mastery pot alone has more itemization value than it.

Also, what are you going to stack, if not mastery? Mastery is simply better than the avoidance secondary stats with 40% block and the meta gem increasing that to 45%. Mastery has no diminishing returns and therefore provides more average DR than an equal amount of avoidance rating. So it's straight up better than avoidance. I suppose you could pick expertise or hit over it, but we're already talking about tanking with SoI and using WoG over SHoR because threat is so high. I don't think that will be necessary.


Well having mastery in either of my trinket slots instead of stamina feels like I am giving up Stamina. :P

Which slots did you have the enchants in?
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Sabindeus » Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:19 am

Xequecal wrote:I'm pretty sure getting Mastery to the block cap will be the #1 priority of tank gearing at any tier.


Given the gear list you posted, it seems pretty impossible to me. It was like 36% off?
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Xequecal » Sun Nov 14, 2010 4:45 pm

That gear list provides 58.5% block. You only need 36.5% dodge+parry to block cap. You might not be quite there but it's pretty close. Remember this is without using any mastery gems.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby lythac » Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:29 pm

Also as you said it is missing a weapon. 7 mastery weapons, most are threat stat/mastery except one which has parry/mastery. There is also an agi based BS crafted weapon that offers mastery, requiring one BoP orb to craft.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Sabindeus » Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:10 pm

Xequecal wrote:That gear list provides 58.5% block. You only need 36.5% dodge+parry to block cap. You might not be quite there but it's pretty close. Remember this is without using any mastery gems.


sure, and what I am saying is, 36.5% dodge + parry, given all that mastery, seems impossible.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Anubelle » Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:57 pm

The question is if block capping is even worth it when it requires going to extreme or close to extreme lengths to gear for it. By that I mean going for Mastery at all costs, be it gems, enchants or picking lower quality items with Mastery on them.

If we miss 10% block chance that means a 1 in 100 chance to have two unblocked hit, so roughly once every ~2 minutes. Block capping is golden when tanking Heroic LK now, but in a raiding environment where supposedly tanks don't die from two or three hits it doesn't sound like it'd feel mandatory.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:29 am

Anubelle wrote:The question is if block capping is even worth it when it requires going to extreme or close to extreme lengths to gear for it. By that I mean going for Mastery at all costs, be it gems, enchants or picking lower quality items with Mastery on them.

If we miss 10% block chance that means a 1 in 100 chance to have two unblocked hit, so roughly once every ~2 minutes. Block capping is golden when tanking Heroic LK now, but in a raiding environment where supposedly tanks don't die from two or three hits it doesn't sound like it'd feel mandatory.


Specially when blocking does squat for magical damage.
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