Libram of Zeal vs. Libram of Divine Purpose, wasted badges

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Postby Blaen99 » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:49 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Roselace wrote:I haven't played around with it like I should but it could amp the normal whacks by 63 each time as well. That would give us some nice mana efficient agro on targets. Dunno how efficient it would be but it's kinda nice.


It doesn't, it is acts like you have +63spell dmg, and so is effected by the coefficient of SoR. If it actually increased the dmg done by SoR by 63 each hit, it might be worth it.


On the other hand, it's very well worth it if you have a ret pally judge cruasader w/Zeal equipped.
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:59 am

Blaen99 wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Roselace wrote:I haven't played around with it like I should but it could amp the normal whacks by 63 each time as well. That would give us some nice mana efficient agro on targets. Dunno how efficient it would be but it's kinda nice.


It doesn't, it is acts like you have +63spell dmg, and so is effected by the coefficient of SoR. If it actually increased the dmg done by SoR by 63 each hit, it might be worth it.


On the other hand, it's very well worth it if you have a ret pally judge cruasader w/Zeal equipped.


With the changes coming in 2.3, I don't think ret pallys will be using that libram, but you'd probably still want them judging crusader for the raid wide crit. I can certainly see times where the badge libram is the best option, although that's a pretty low standard. I just find the badge libram, and the vast majority of our other librams to be very underwhelming.
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Postby Blaen99 » Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:29 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Roselace wrote:I haven't played around with it like I should but it could amp the normal whacks by 63 each time as well. That would give us some nice mana efficient agro on targets. Dunno how efficient it would be but it's kinda nice.


It doesn't, it is acts like you have +63spell dmg, and so is effected by the coefficient of SoR. If it actually increased the dmg done by SoR by 63 each hit, it might be worth it.


On the other hand, it's very well worth it if you have a ret pally judge cruasader w/Zeal equipped.


With the changes coming in 2.3, I don't think ret pallys will be using that libram, but you'd probably still want them judging crusader for the raid wide crit. I can certainly see times where the badge libram is the best option, although that's a pretty low standard. I just find the badge libram, and the vast majority of our other librams to be very underwhelming.


Can't the ret pally swap out librams so they get the affect from the badge libram when judged?

(Never tried, just wondering)
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Postby adese » Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:34 am

Blaen99 wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Roselace wrote:I haven't played around with it like I should but it could amp the normal whacks by 63 each time as well. That would give us some nice mana efficient agro on targets. Dunno how efficient it would be but it's kinda nice.


It doesn't, it is acts like you have +63spell dmg, and so is effected by the coefficient of SoR. If it actually increased the dmg done by SoR by 63 each hit, it might be worth it.


On the other hand, it's very well worth it if you have a ret pally judge cruasader w/Zeal equipped.


With the changes coming in 2.3, I don't think ret pallys will be using that libram, but you'd probably still want them judging crusader for the raid wide crit. I can certainly see times where the badge libram is the best option, although that's a pretty low standard. I just find the badge libram, and the vast majority of our other librams to be very underwhelming.


Can't the ret pally swap out librams so they get the affect from the badge libram when judged?

(Never tried, just wondering)


I've never used Zeal, but I seem to recall reading that the Crusader bonus goes back down once you swap in a different libram. I think this is because you essentially re-cast the judgement when you hit the mob, so if you don't have the libram equipped at that point, it gets the normal value.
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Postby Blaen99 » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:21 am

adese wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Roselace wrote:I haven't played around with it like I should but it could amp the normal whacks by 63 each time as well. That would give us some nice mana efficient agro on targets. Dunno how efficient it would be but it's kinda nice.


It doesn't, it is acts like you have +63spell dmg, and so is effected by the coefficient of SoR. If it actually increased the dmg done by SoR by 63 each hit, it might be worth it.


On the other hand, it's very well worth it if you have a ret pally judge cruasader w/Zeal equipped.


With the changes coming in 2.3, I don't think ret pallys will be using that libram, but you'd probably still want them judging crusader for the raid wide crit. I can certainly see times where the badge libram is the best option, although that's a pretty low standard. I just find the badge libram, and the vast majority of our other librams to be very underwhelming.


Can't the ret pally swap out librams so they get the affect from the badge libram when judged?

(Never tried, just wondering)


I've never used Zeal, but I seem to recall reading that the Crusader bonus goes back down once you swap in a different libram. I think this is because you essentially re-cast the judgement when you hit the mob, so if you don't have the libram equipped at that point, it gets the normal value.


I was implying swapping out to the badge libram for the buff, then swapping back to Zeal.
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:54 pm

Blaen99 wrote:I was implying swapping out to the badge libram for the buff, then swapping back to Zeal.


You probably could, I'm not sure it's worth the hassle, the cooldown caused by swapping in the Divine Judgment libram would get in the way of resealing, or you'd have to manage it manually. I think that having to jump through such hoops to make use of the new libram, means blizzard could have done a much better job on its design.
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Postby Blaen99 » Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:45 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:I was implying swapping out to the badge libram for the buff, then swapping back to Zeal.


You probably could, I'm not sure it's worth the hassle, the cooldown caused by swapping in the Divine Judgment libram would get in the way of resealing, or you'd have to manage it manually. I think that having to jump through such hoops to make use of the new libram, means blizzard could have done a much better job on its design.


Err, what?

/cast Judgement
/stopcasting
/cast Seal
/equip macro goes here

IIRC at least.
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:45 pm

You still need to equip the badge libram right before you judge command.
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Postby Blaen99 » Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:48 pm

Fridmarr wrote:You still need to equip the badge libram right before you judge command.


Not that difficult, a slight tweak...

/cast SealCom
/equip Libram
/cast Judgement
/equip Libram

BFD, re-seal after.
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Postby Joanadark » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:19 pm

those macros do not work

any action taken that triggers the global cooldown (such as casting a seal) stops the macro at that point.

For example, I can have a macro that goes like this....

/cast Judgement
/stopcasting
/cast Seal of Righteousness


and hit the button for the macro each time I want to judge/reseal, while simply hitting it once to put up a seal of righteousness if I have no seal active.

However, I cannot make a macro that goes like this...

Code: Select all
/cast Seal of Righteousness
/stopcasting
/cast Judgement


Because hitting this macro will just recast SoR over and over and over without judging, because casting a seal triggers the global cooldown, and therefore stops the macro.
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Postby Joanadark » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:22 pm

for the sake of the current discussion, its notable that equipping a different Libram triggers the global cooldown.
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:48 am

Blaen99 wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:You still need to equip the badge libram right before you judge command.


Not that difficult, a slight tweak...

/cast SealCom
/equip Libram
/cast Judgement
/equip Libram

BFD, re-seal after.


But that's exactly what I said, you'd have to wait to reseal, I'm not sure why you went through all this just to confirm that. In any event, I just don't think it is worth it.
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Postby Blaen99 » Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:51 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:You still need to equip the badge libram right before you judge command.


Not that difficult, a slight tweak...

/cast SealCom
/equip Libram
/cast Judgement
/equip Libram

BFD, re-seal after.


But that's exactly what I said, you'd have to wait to reseal, I'm not sure why you went through all this just to confirm that. In any event, I just don't think it is worth it.


Never min/max before?

If you don't think this is worth it, I wonder what you think totem twisting would be worth ~.^.
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:07 pm

Joanadark wrote:those macros do not work

any action taken that triggers the global cooldown (such as casting a seal) stops the macro at that point.

For example, I can have a macro that goes like this....

/cast Judgement
/stopcasting
/cast Seal of Righteousness


and hit the button for the macro each time I want to judge/reseal, while simply hitting it once to put up a seal of righteousness if I have no seal active.

However, I cannot make a macro that goes like this...

Code: Select all
/cast Seal of Righteousness
/stopcasting
/cast Judgement


Because hitting this macro will just recast SoR over and over and over without judging, because casting a seal triggers the global cooldown, and therefore stops the macro.


That is incorrect, the Macros do not stop. That second macro will actually work sometimes and sometimes not. When it doesn't work though, you'll get an error saying "You can't do that yet" meaning it didn't stop, it just couldn't execute the judgment. Macros have a timing problem because they are executed asynchronously, meaning they don't wait for a command to finish before continuing to the next. The reason that macro sometimes doesn't judge, is because it executes so quickly that you actually haven't sealed yet as far as the server is concerned.

An easy way to see a Macro doesn't stop is to put a simple chat command after it, like

/Cast Seal of Light
/s Hello

Joanadark wrote:for the sake of the current discussion, its notable that equipping a different Libram triggers the global cooldown.

That's been noted, and it also has been noted that it won't cause a global cooldown if one is already started.
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:11 pm

Blaen99 wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:You still need to equip the badge libram right before you judge command.


Not that difficult, a slight tweak...

/cast SealCom
/equip Libram
/cast Judgement
/equip Libram

BFD, re-seal after.


But that's exactly what I said, you'd have to wait to reseal, I'm not sure why you went through all this just to confirm that. In any event, I just don't think it is worth it.


Never min/max before?

If you don't think this is worth it, I wonder what you think totem twisting would be worth ~.^.


That's not min/max though, you are lowering the DPS of your Ret pally by making his Judgment cause a global cooldown, which is also a nuisance, for a rather tiny increase in your threat.
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