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Block-capping, unfortunate future.

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Dantriges » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:11 am

Without the mana regeneration from spec, it will be hard. Perhaps elemental can do emergency healing for a longer time, switching to water shield, but moonkin/resto, no. I can´t imagine that you could pull it off, without the talents, unles you are overgeared. So dualspec. Well gear. They already homogenized a lot but you probably reforge differently for different specs. But could be that you are able to use the same fear for two different roles. Shadowpriests, eleshamans and moonkins probably want will for hit, their healing counterparts for manareg.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Darielle » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:51 am

Spirit gives all the hybrid casts hit at a 1:1 ratio, so there'd be little point seeking hit specifically. It's a moot point for leather and mail because there will only be one leather and mail choice anyway.

For progression content, I'd want three full healers, one of which might swing dps as needed. On the other side, you might want a full time dps to swing heals in some cases. A shadow priest, boomkin or elemental shaman would probably fill this role well, and may not even need to switch spec / gear.


Wouldn't it just be more efficient to have 2 full healers and 1 swing dps/healer? That takes care of 2 and 3 heal situations, and the likelihood of needing 4 healers is pretty much just nonexistent.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Palisade » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:07 am

Darielle wrote:Spirit gives all the hybrid casts hit at a 1:1 ratio, so there'd be little point seeking hit specifically. It's a moot point for leather and mail because there will only be one leather and mail choice anyway.

For progression content, I'd want three full healers, one of which might swing dps as needed. On the other side, you might want a full time dps to swing heals in some cases. A shadow priest, boomkin or elemental shaman would probably fill this role well, and may not even need to switch spec / gear.


Wouldn't it just be more efficient to have 2 full healers and 1 swing dps/healer? That takes care of 2 and 3 heal situations, and the likelihood of needing 4 healers is pretty much just nonexistent.


The suggestion was made to use 4 healers to trivialize bosses that don't have enrage timers.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Darielle » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:22 am

The suggestion was made to use 4 healers to trivialize bosses that don't have enrage timers.


That would still have to rely on it being "trivialized" or a reason where 4 healers gains you something tangible. So there's a lot more conditions behind that ever being a good idea.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Tev » Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:45 am

My main thinking was that without an enrage timer, the only thing that would cap the duration of the fight is healer mana. Swapping out a dps for another healer would in theory have a significant return as it would increase the healer mana longevity by a greater margin than the loss of 1 dps (maybe not as much in a 10 man, but in a 25 man it could be a much bigger turn around).

This is of coarse assuming the raid is compitent enough to handle situational occurances (no standing in the fire) and you have a tank that is geared enough to take what the boss dishes out.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Digren » Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:11 pm

I'm not trying to weigh in with an opinion, just providing some numbers I see in beta.

Level 85 pre-made

Raw gear: 11.78% dodge, 13.21% parry, 34.78% block (64.78% total)

Post reforging: 10.61% dodge, 11.62% parry, 43.47% block (70.70% total)

Post gems (combo or pure blue, matching bonuses): 10.61%, 12.00%, 44.35% (71.96% total)

Post enchants (best in slot, not just avoidance/block): 11.28%, 12.00%, 46.24% (74.52% total)

So that's about 75% in T11 normal, without hurting for stamina (at 170145 health, 35693 armor)

Add to that:
About +3% (600 dodge rating) when Windwalk procs, if that's used
+6.6% when (1605 dodge rating) with Vial of Stolen Memories effect
+12.1% (963 mastery rating) when melee attacks take me below 35% health with Bedrock Talisman

I could probably eek out 10% more at a drastic stamina loss, i.e. using pure gems instead of combo/sta gems, then using JC purple gems as mastery instead of stamina, then using mastery gems over socket-matching gems, then using lower-quality enchants and gems (like the Fleet Shadowspirit Diamond) to provide mastery instead of stamina.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Digren » Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:19 pm

For some opinion:
Using the correct meta, an unblocked hit is 83% larger than a blocked hit. Yes, if you're not block capped, EH says that for the worst-case scenario and longest TTL we should ignore blocking and focus on stamina and armor.

If, however, they've eliminated the tank 1-2 shot, so that healers can react to bad events and save the tank, then the battle for least damage taken will have to skew greatly towards the block tank, even if that tank is not capped, because I don't think there's an amount of armor we could get that could mitigate like block can.
Last edited by Digren on Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Dantriges » Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:43 pm

Puh, 83% is a big difference.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Sabindeus » Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:06 am

Digren wrote: we should ignore blocking and focus on stamina and agility.

pssst, agi doesn't boost armor anymore
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby thegreatheed » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:01 am

Tev wrote:
This is of coarse assuming the raid is compitent enough to handle situational occurances (no standing in the fire) and you have a tank that is geared enough to take what the boss dishes out.


If your tank is appropriately geared, and your dps is competent, it sounds like there's likely no reason to try and cheese the bosses.

I just don't think many will see a normal raiding scenario where

1. tank is geared
2. all the other players are competent

and somehow your healers are so badly geared you need to cheese fight strategies. I just don't understand the reasoning behind this discussion.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Neptuno » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:30 pm

Digren wrote:Using the correct meta, an unblocked hit is 83% larger than a blocked hit.


it does bring up a question: what's the meta gem BV amount in cata? http://cata.wowhead.com/item=52293 is teh gem, but if you click on the 5% BV effect it goes to this: http://cata.wowhead.com/spell=55283 is what the effect is according to wowhead (so the tooltip that says + 5% yields a 1% block value o.O )

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... ic#p619479 according to their it is 1%, so 41% reduction /= 83%, so can you walk me through the math on that? like what armor reduction are you considering and how is it stacking with the BV?
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:50 pm

Neptuno wrote:
Digren wrote:Using the correct meta, an unblocked hit is 83% larger than a blocked hit.


it does bring up a question: what's the meta gem BV amount in cata? http://cata.wowhead.com/item=52293 is teh gem, but if you click on the 5% BV effect it goes to this: http://cata.wowhead.com/spell=55283 is what the effect is according to wowhead (so the tooltip that says + 5% yields a 1% block value o.O )

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... ic#p619479 according to their it is 1%, so 41% reduction /= 83%, so can you walk me through the math on that? like what armor reduction are you considering and how is it stacking with the BV?

He's not saying it's 83% mitigation as opposed to 41%, he's saying the final amount that you get hit for is 83% larger if you didn't block the hit. Those are two different things.

So after armor the hit lands for 100 if you don't block it.
With 41% mitigation from block, it'll land for 59.
100 is roughly 70% larger than 59. So 41% more mitigation results in unblocked hits being about 70% larger.

Now had the meta been 5% instead of 1% then the hit would have been for 55 damage, and 100 is roughly 83% larger than 55, thus his claim.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby earanduin » Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:48 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Neptuno wrote:
Digren wrote:Using the correct meta, an unblocked hit is 83% larger than a blocked hit.


it does bring up a question: what's the meta gem BV amount in cata? http://cata.wowhead.com/item=52293 is teh gem, but if you click on the 5% BV effect it goes to this: http://cata.wowhead.com/spell=55283 is what the effect is according to wowhead (so the tooltip that says + 5% yields a 1% block value o.O )

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... ic#p619479 according to their it is 1%, so 41% reduction /= 83%, so can you walk me through the math on that? like what armor reduction are you considering and how is it stacking with the BV?



He's not saying it's 83% mitigation as opposed to 41%, he's saying the final amount that you get hit for is 83% larger if you didn't block the hit. Those are two different things.

So after armor the hit lands for 100 if you don't block it.
With 41% mitigation from block, it'll land for 59.
100 is roughly 70% larger than 59. So 41% more mitigation results in unblocked hits being about 70% larger.

Now had the meta been 5% instead of 1% then the hit would have been for 55 damage, and 100 is roughly 83% larger than 55, thus his claim.


From what I understand, the %5 on the meta is applied to the block amount itself, hence 40% * 1.05 = 42% (not 45%). As such, an unblocked hit is 100/(100-42) = 1.724 = 72.4% larger than a blocked hit. This is larger than the crushing blows of yesteryear, but if the developers are indeed basing boss damage on surviving at least 2 consecutive unblocked hits then it shouldn't be that bad. And expect the nerfbat in +/- T13 (depending on when we can block cap without greatly affecting overall hp).
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Dantriges » Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:03 am

Deathwing radiance?
Reduces hitpoints, blockchance, percentage blocked, mastery of blood dk and feraltanks in bearspec :wink:
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:45 am

earanduin wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Neptuno wrote:
it does bring up a question: what's the meta gem BV amount in cata? http://cata.wowhead.com/item=52293 is teh gem, but if you click on the 5% BV effect it goes to this: http://cata.wowhead.com/spell=55283 is what the effect is according to wowhead (so the tooltip that says + 5% yields a 1% block value o.O )

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... ic#p619479 according to their it is 1%, so 41% reduction /= 83%, so can you walk me through the math on that? like what armor reduction are you considering and how is it stacking with the BV?



He's not saying it's 83% mitigation as opposed to 41%, he's saying the final amount that you get hit for is 83% larger if you didn't block the hit. Those are two different things.

So after armor the hit lands for 100 if you don't block it.
With 41% mitigation from block, it'll land for 59.
100 is roughly 70% larger than 59. So 41% more mitigation results in unblocked hits being about 70% larger.

Now had the meta been 5% instead of 1% then the hit would have been for 55 damage, and 100 is roughly 83% larger than 55, thus his claim.


From what I understand, the %5 on the meta is applied to the block amount itself, hence 40% * 1.05 = 42% (not 45%). As such, an unblocked hit is 100/(100-42) = 1.724 = 72.4% larger than a blocked hit. This is larger than the crushing blows of yesteryear, but if the developers are indeed basing boss damage on surviving at least 2 consecutive unblocked hits then it shouldn't be that bad. And expect the nerfbat in +/- T13 (depending on when we can block cap without greatly affecting overall hp).
Yeah my post was not intended to make any claims about how that meta works or really anything other than how the math works to show close to an 83% larger hit out of 45% mitigation.
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