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Block-capping, unfortunate future.

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Paxen » Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:32 am

Feanorion wrote:Incorrect. This will happen if Cata mobs/bosses hit hard enough to 2-3 shot tanks. From what I hear, the Cata stuff hits for a metric ton. Tanking has always, and always will, revolve around preparing for the worst RNG case. If RNG allows us to take 3 unblocked hits consecutively, we will HAVE to gear strictly and solely for EH to the exclusion of all else when and where we have the possibility to do so. The healers will have to come up with their own solutions for mana.

If the healer still has mana, but I die from bad RNG--- game over.

If the healer is drained of mana, but I live because I stacked EH--- we're still in the game. Mana pot, LOH the healer, pop all trinkets/cd's, Enervate, Enh. Shammy or Ret drops emergency heals until healer can get back up to speed.

Lots of options for a depleted healer mana bar. No options at all for a depleted tank health bar.


And if this happens, blizz will have failed at their goal. 3 unblocked hits equals dead tank? Then we're back to EH being king, avoidance being worthless and healers chain casting on tanks.

Is this how it works on beta? Because if it is, I'll have to reconsider even preordering cata. I was looking forward to being able to react to tank damage and thinking during raid damage, and to making informed decisions between block, avoidance and mitigation. If it's all just the same old, same old (except with healers running out of mana halfway through the fight if you don't want to wipe) I don't really see the point of tanking and healing again.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby DexterBelgium » Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:37 am

Feanorion wrote:
Paxen wrote:
Feanorion wrote:My view is that not being able to block-cap makes block next to worthless from a gearing standpoint. We will have to stack EH again, because we can not afford 2-3 unblocked hits in a row if we do not make sure we have the EH to cover that eventuality. Yes, we will still want as much Mastery as we can get, but armor and stam will still be the only stats we can really make a concerted effort to stack. And if we can't stack armor? Then I just don't see any good option. Roller-coaster damage intake, tank sudden-death from a short string of 100% hits, and "LF Bear tank" will be seen in a lot of trade channels. Not that paladins (and warriors) will be unable to tank the content, only that it will be MUCH easier with a druid tank.


This will only happen if blizz fails at their stated goal (making avoidance and mana matter, slowing down tank deaths)


Incorrect. This will happen if Cata mobs/bosses hit hard enough to 2-3 shot tanks. From what I hear, the Cata stuff hits for a metric ton.
[...]
If the healer still has mana, but I die from bad RNG--- game over.

If the healer is drained of mana, but I live because I stacked EH--- we're still in the game. Mana pot, LOH the healer, pop all trinkets/cd's, Enervate, Enh. Shammy or Ret drops emergency heals until healer can get back up to speed.

Lots of options for a depleted healer mana bar. No options at all for a depleted tank health bar.

As Paxen says, everything they've said at blizzcon and surrounding it, ESPECIALLY on the subject of Druid tanks, indicates that it is their ABSOLUTE design goal to have you survive 3-4 100% boss hits without any healing, WITHOUT EH stacking to absurd amounts. They have litterally said they'l be nerfing druids (dks) AND BOSS HITS to that effect. So, as Paxen says, only if they fail at that will the sky actually fall.

One of the design goals is= no more RNG deaths for tanks. Death should be either: you and your healer are undergeared and your health deficit slowly catches up with you OR you and/or your healer were asleep at the wheel, and were not prepared for the "telegraphed big boss hit".

If not, you will have the option: EH Stack so you can get 5-6 100% hits, avoidance stack, so you can have periods where you don't take too much dmg at all (which means that mana is conserved, but the healer needs to be awake to change healing up from slow to "oops, seems like a run of bad luck, time to up the heals"), etc. This would make for a much more interesting tanking AND healing game, and I, for one, hope to the light they succeed at it. It will also give us a little more time and thought when to use cooldowns, both tactically and in OMGWTFISTHEHEALERDEADORJUSTRESTING? moments.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Dantriges » Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:17 am

Feanorion wrote:If the healer still has mana, but I die from bad RNG--- game over.

If the healer is drained of mana, but I live because I stacked EH--- we're still in the game. Mana pot, LOH the healer, pop all trinkets/cd's, Enervate, Enh. Shammy or Ret drops emergency heals until healer can get back up to speed.

Lots of options for a depleted healer mana bar. No options at all for a depleted tank health bar.


They are slowly closing the options. One mana pot is good for a few heals perhaps, but haven´t done the numbers, but the days of chainpotting mana are over, long ago, IIRC LoH doesn´t restore mana anymore, innervate is now 30% (hm MMO says 20%)of the druids complete manabar, so feral innervate is nice to have but weak. Wonder about resto and moonkin. I can remember that I needed innervates for myself as a resto for a long time. This leaves moonkin innervate and I saw some posts in the Moonkin EJ beta thread that they need innervate for themselves but if it´s actually true or a wrong perception, don´t know. The only mana regain talent I see at the moment is a innervate yourself, gain more mana talent with Dreamstate. OK healer mana matters more but nothing you can plan to use on the healer regularly unles you wish to have an innervate bot in the raid.

So it seems to me that reducing total damage will be one of our concerns, we have to gear for that and hope that Blizzard took it into account that we can survive strings of unblocked hits. It concerns me a little bit that the difference between blocked and unblocked is rather large for us.
Last edited by Dantriges on Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Feanorion » Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:23 am

DexterBelgium wrote:
Feanorion wrote:Incorrect. This will happen if Cata mobs/bosses hit hard enough to 2-3 shot tanks. From what I hear, the Cata stuff hits for a metric ton.
[...]
If the healer still has mana, but I die from bad RNG--- game over.

If the healer is drained of mana, but I live because I stacked EH--- we're still in the game. Mana pot, LOH the healer, pop all trinkets/cd's, Enervate, Enh. Shammy or Ret drops emergency heals until healer can get back up to speed.

Lots of options for a depleted healer mana bar. No options at all for a depleted tank health bar.

As Paxen says, everything they've said at blizzcon and surrounding it, ESPECIALLY on the subject of Druid tanks, indicates that it is their ABSOLUTE design goal to have you survive 3-4 100% boss hits without any healing, WITHOUT EH stacking to absurd amounts.



They also had a specific design goal of healer mana mattering in the beginning of WotLK. How did that work out?

They also had a specific design goal of making the 96969 a thing of the past. So now we have--- as of the last time I checked in--- the 939 rotation of CS/HotR > J> CS/HotR > AS/HW > CS/HotR > SoR/Inq. Apart from subbing WoG for the finishes if the Vengeance-fueled threat lead was sufficiently ridiculous, no real difference from the alleged and over-stated "inflexibility" of the 96969. Two 1-button macros instead of just one 1-button macro.

If we can take 6 100% shots with no heals, tanking will be mind-numbingly boring, and encounters will be too boring. Death by slow tank strangulation is simply not a fun or challenging mechanic to build around. Highballing freight train damage will NEVER go away, nor should it.

Even if that high-damage boss only exists in one encounter, tanks will gear to survive him, and cakewalk through everything else. If the tank is EH-geared to survive the hardest hitter, everything else is cake. Healer mana will always be made available, because Blizzard always caves to qq. And gemming for Avoidance, or even hybrid stam/avoidance, will be punished into absurdity by crushing Diminishing Returns curves.

Allowing block-capping actually makes tank gemming/enchanting interesting. Once we block-cap, we can either gem/enchant stam for EH, or avoidance to fill up the table with more avoids and fewer blocks (obviously reducing Block accordingly to avoid wasted itemization). Taking away block-capping really forces us right back into EH all the time, every time.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Dantriges » Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:34 am

Feanorion wrote:Even if that high-damage boss only exists in one encounter, tanks will gear to survive him, and cakewalk through everything else. If the tank is EH-geared to survive the hardest hitter, everything else is cake. Healer mana will always be made available, because Blizzard always caves to qq. And gemming for Avoidance, or even hybrid stam/avoidance, will be punished into absurdity by crushing Diminishing Returns curves.


There was a Blue Pos that said more or less that the whole raid design is based on the assumption that healer mana has to matter or the whole thing doesn´t work. I wonder if they are able to pull it off that healers don´t get long strings of oom and boring times, even if they are skilled players and if mana management will make healing interesting or too complicated for the normal healer.

So they can´t cave in, unless they want weird things to happen and well I think Wrath used up a good amount of good will from the player base.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Feanorion » Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:11 am

Dantriges wrote:
Feanorion wrote:Even if that high-damage boss only exists in one encounter, tanks will gear to survive him, and cakewalk through everything else. If the tank is EH-geared to survive the hardest hitter, everything else is cake. Healer mana will always be made available, because Blizzard always caves to qq. And gemming for Avoidance, or even hybrid stam/avoidance, will be punished into absurdity by crushing Diminishing Returns curves.


There was a Blue Pos that said more or less that the whole raid design is based on the assumption that healer mana has to matter or the whole thing doesn´t work. I wonder if they are able to pull it off that healers don´t get long strings of oom and boring times, even if they are skilled players and if mana management will make healing interesting or too complicated for the normal healer.

So they can´t cave in, unless they want weird things to happen and well I think Wrath used up a good amount of good will from the player base.


The whole thing won't work. They can't nail down damage, health, threat, or healing mechanics with just one month before launch. Less than a month, actually. Again: this is not numbers passes--- they're still tinkering with basic mechanics. This game is screwed like a b-grade porn star.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Darielle » Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:48 am

This is why someone who is neither interested in the game nor in the beta shouldn't be ranting.

BTW, I should mention that Bears are on the same playing field as Plate tanks in terms of armor and health now. Just thought I'd let you know.
Last edited by Darielle on Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Feanorion » Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:18 am

Darielle wrote:This is why someone who is neither interested in the game nor in the beta shouldn't be ranting.

BTW, I should mention that Bears are on the same playing field as Plate tanks in terms of armor and health now. Just thought I'd let you know.

I was actually referring to the DK shield and SD for druids as much as anything else. Last I heard, they were both far and away superior to block, and no outcry about nerfs to either on the forums that I saw.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Flex » Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:58 am

Feanorion wrote:
Darielle wrote:This is why someone who is neither interested in the game nor in the beta shouldn't be ranting.

BTW, I should mention that Bears are on the same playing field as Plate tanks in terms of armor and health now. Just thought I'd let you know.

I was actually referring to the DK shield and SD for druids as much as anything else. Last I heard, they were both far and away superior to block, and no outcry about nerfs to either on the forums that I saw.


Blood Shield, maybe. Harder to model accurately.
Savage Defense has been changed significantly.

so...This is why someone who is neither interested in the game nor in the beta shouldn't be ranting.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Tev » Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:05 am

Dantriges wrote:There was a Blue Pos that said more or less that the whole raid design is based on the assumption that healer mana has to matter or the whole thing doesn´t work. I wonder if they are able to pull it off that healers don´t get long strings of oom and boring times, even if they are skilled players and if mana management will make healing interesting or too complicated for the normal healer.

So they can´t cave in, unless they want weird things to happen and well I think Wrath used up a good amount of good will from the player base.



This has me wondering, will every boss encounter have a tight enrage timer? If not, then in theory, the encounter could be trivialized by adding an extra healer. They design the fight for 3 healers, your bring 4 (assuming that the dps loss doesn't hit the enrage timer of the fight). This is of coarse is based on the general design that Tank + healers + "no standing in the fire" = win
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Darielle » Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:26 am

This has me wondering, will every boss encounter have a tight enrage timer? If not, then in theory, the encounter could be trivialized by adding an extra healer. They design the fight for 3 healers, your bring 4 (assuming that the dps loss doesn't hit the enrage timer of the fight). This is of coarse is based on the general design that Tank + healers + "no standing in the fire" = win


~

Even fights that don't have a tight Berserk timer will have some level of a DPS benchmark during the fight to prevent that most likely, especially so if there's also a mechanic that takes out a person temporarily. There might be a few fights where stacking an extra healer could be worth it but I would doubt it.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Palisade » Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:51 am

Darielle wrote:
This has me wondering, will every boss encounter have a tight enrage timer? If not, then in theory, the encounter could be trivialized by adding an extra healer. They design the fight for 3 healers, your bring 4 (assuming that the dps loss doesn't hit the enrage timer of the fight). This is of coarse is based on the general design that Tank + healers + "no standing in the fire" = win


~

Even fights that don't have a tight Berserk timer will have some level of a DPS benchmark during the fight to prevent that most likely, especially so if there's also a mechanic that takes out a person temporarily. There might be a few fights where stacking an extra healer could be worth it but I would doubt it.



Or you just have a dps with a healer off spec as a pinch hitter for certain fights.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Darielle » Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:07 am

Well, the swing guy would be your 3rd healer to begin with I imagine. Unless you have 3 full time healers and 1 swing, or 2 swings I guess. *shrug*
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Dantriges » Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:35 am

Feanorion wrote:The whole thing won't work. They can't nail down damage, health, threat, or healing mechanics with just one month before launch. Less than a month, actually. Again: this is not numbers passes--- they're still tinkering with basic mechanics. This game is screwed like a b-grade porn star.


I assume they already did, this is more or less number fiddling, like for heal paladins and removal of unexpected problems. Doesn´t mean that I think it actually will work as intended. They walk a tight rope between
Too much mana->system breaks down
Barely enough mana-> healers probably bored
Not enough mana ->we will all die
Mana matters but with some space for errors->working as intended.

The system will probably break down in 4.0.3. when millions of players or at least some of them try to twist and bend the system in their favor. Some healer classes will have more mana problems than others and there will be less demand for them. So there will be another rollercoaster ride for healers and tanks.
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Re: Block-capping, unfortunate future.

Postby Palisade » Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:53 am

Darielle wrote:Well, the swing guy would be your 3rd healer to begin with I imagine. Unless you have 3 full time healers and 1 swing, or 2 swings I guess. *shrug*


For progression content, I'd want three full healers, one of which might swing dps as needed. On the other side, you might want a full time dps to swing heals in some cases. A shadow priest, boomkin or elemental shaman would probably fill this role well, and may not even need to switch spec / gear.
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