Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:17 pm

No, in this case that's not a safe assumption.

Seal of Truth scales with weapon damage, but Censure does not. The reason slow weapons are generally higher dps than fast weapons is because we proc Seal of Truth with many of our special abilities, and those procs are significantly larger with a slow weapon because the AP component is not weapon-speed-normalized. The formula for SoT is:

0.21*(weapon_damage+(AP/14)*weapon_speed)*SotP*SpellDmgDebuff

Because of the AP term, if we increase weapon_speed from 1.8 to 2.6 we see a significant increase in damage. Thus, we can reasonably expect SotP to increase in value with a slow weapon.

However, Crusade also scales with weapon damage. Crusader Strike is weapon-speed-normalized, meaning that it uses the formula:

1.5*(weapon_damage+(AP/14)*2.4)*(Crus+WotL)*PhysDmgRedux

In other words, it doesn't matter what your weapon speed is, the AP contribution is constant. However, a slower weapon will have a larger weapon_damage, so there will be some increase.

Your intuition would be that since SoT gives more significant scaling with weapon speed, SotP should overtake Crusade with a slow weapon. Unfortunately, that's not the case. Even though SoT scales better, SotP only modifies it by 6% per point, and it's only getting 21% of the weapon speed increase. Crusade, on the other hand, gives 10% per point, and it modifies an ability that's doing 150% the weapon_damage increase, though PhysDmgRedux will bring that down closer to 90%.

Here's what I get if I run the talent simulation with heroic BVB:
Code: Select all

Talent                  DPS/pt    Cons>HW
SotP                      66.5      66.5
Hallowed Ground            0.0      16.0
WotL                     326.3     321.1
Reck                     136.8     136.8
Arbiter of the Light      30.4      30.4
JotP                      38.7      38.7
Crusade                   70.6      70.6
RoL                       55.4      55.4
Grand Crusader            50.8      50.8
Sacred Duty              297.3     297.3


SotP goes up by 6.2 DPS per point, but Crusade goes up by 8 DPS per point. So Crusade actually pulls ahead of SotP with slower weapons.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:53 pm

Time for some collaborative fun with the AoE module (which, by the way, isn't updated in the repository yet, I'm still fooling with priority queues).

Based on Knaughty's feedback, I'm calculating primary-target damage and "guaranteed" AoE damage from Cons/HW/HammerNova and AS on 3 or less targets. For 3 or more targets, AS isn't factored into the guaranteed damage.

Right now I've been playing with queues, which is where you folks come in. My method is basically:
1: Generate a bunch of data for different queues that make sense
2: Look at the results and try and get some insight from them
3: Figure out if there are any variations that are worth simulating
4: GOTO 1

Here's what I have already:

Primary target:
Code: Select all
                                              # Mobs
   Q#   Queue                        1     2     3     4     5    Empty   E%
    1   ShoR>HotR>J>AS>Cons>HW      9105  9097  9092  9090  9088     0   0.0
    2   ShoR>HotR>AS>J>Cons>HW      8970  8959  8953  8949  8947    19   0.2
    3   ShoR>HotR>AS>Cons>J>HW      8738  8720  8711  8706  8702    15   0.1
    4   ShoR>HotR>AS>Cons>HW>J      8456  8431  8418  8411  8405   101   1.0
    5   ShoR>HotR>Cons>AS>HW>J      8460  8434  8421  8413  8408   118   1.2
    6   ShoR>HotR>Cons>HW>AS>J      8465  8437  8423  8414  8409   110   1.1
    7   ShoR>HotR>HW>Cons>AS>J      8498  8470  8456  8447  8442    96   1.0
    8   ShoR>AS>HotR>Cons>HW>J      8489  8462  8449  8441  8436   378   3.0
    9   AS>ShoR>HotR>Cons>HW>J      8476  8450  8437  8429  8424   387   2.9
   10   AS>HotR>ShoR>Cons>HW>J      8282  8257  8244  8237  8231   121   1.2
   11   AS>HotR>Cons>ShoR>HW>J      8214  8188  8175  8167  8162   122   1.2
   12   HotR>AS>Cons>ShoR>HW>J      8214  8188  8175  8167  8162   106   1.1
   13   HotR>Cons>AS>ShoR>HW>J      8259  8233  8219  8211  8206   109   1.1
   14   HotR>Cons>HW>AS>ShoR>J      7829  7795  7779  7769  7762   267   2.7
   15   Cons>HotR>AS>ShoR>HW>J      8237  8211  8197  8189  8184   115   1.1
   16   Cons>AS>HotR>ShoR>HW>J      8283  8257  8243  8235  8230   226   2.0
   17   Cons>HW>AS>HotR>ShoR>J      8029  7995  7978  7968  7961   559   5.2
   18   HotR>Cons>HW>AS>Inq>J       6749  6709  6689  6677  6670   513   5.1
   19   HotR>AS>Cons>HW>Inq>J       6804  6769  6752  6741  6734   514   5.1
   20   Inq>HotR>AS>Cons>HW>J>Inq   7077  7039  7020  7009  7001   177   1.8
   21   Inq>HotR>Cons>AS>HW>J       6961  6924  6906  6896  6888   413   4.1
   22   Inq>HotR>AS>Cons>HW>J       6992  6957  6940  6930  6923   398   4.0
   23   Inq>AS>HotR>Cons>HW>J       7013  6976  6958  6947  6940   734   5.7
   24   AS>Inq>HotR>Cons>HW>J       6951  6915  6897  6886  6879   739   6.1


Guaranteed:
Code: Select all
                                             # Mobs
   Q#   Queue                        1     2     3     4     5    Empty   E%
    1   ShoR>HotR>J>AS>Cons>HW      1838  1829  1662  1173  1171     0   0.0
    2   ShoR>HotR>AS>J>Cons>HW      1949  1938  1745  1181  1178    19   0.2
    3   ShoR>HotR>AS>Cons>J>HW      2003  1986  1790  1224  1220    15   0.1
    4   ShoR>HotR>AS>Cons>HW>J      2045  2019  1818  1244  1239   101   1.0
    5   ShoR>HotR>Cons>AS>HW>J      2018  1992  1800  1253  1248   118   1.2
    6   ShoR>HotR>Cons>HW>AS>J      1945  1916  1744  1259  1253   110   1.1
    7   ShoR>HotR>HW>Cons>AS>J      1954  1926  1751  1259  1253    96   1.0
    8   ShoR>AS>HotR>Cons>HW>J      2043  2016  1801  1185  1180   378   3.0
    9   AS>ShoR>HotR>Cons>HW>J      2061  2035  1809  1165  1159   387   2.9
   10   AS>HotR>ShoR>Cons>HW>J      2188  2162  1928  1254  1249   121   1.2
   11   AS>HotR>Cons>ShoR>HW>J      2208  2182  1946  1268  1263   122   1.2
   12   HotR>AS>Cons>ShoR>HW>J      2201  2175  1941  1269  1264   106   1.1
   13   HotR>Cons>AS>ShoR>HW>J      2179  2153  1925  1275  1270   109   1.1
   14   HotR>Cons>HW>AS>ShoR>J      2152  2119  1902  1292  1285   267   2.7
   15   Cons>HotR>AS>ShoR>HW>J      2192  2166  1935  1275  1270   115   1.1
   16   Cons>AS>HotR>ShoR>HW>J      2144  2117  1888  1234  1229   226   2.0
   17   Cons>HW>AS>HotR>ShoR>J      2073  2039  1811  1166  1159   559   5.2
   18   HotR>Cons>HW>AS>Inq>J       2322  2283  2035  1337  1330   513   5.1
   19   HotR>AS>Cons>HW>Inq>J       2416  2381  2103  1312  1305   514   5.1
   20   Inq>HotR>AS>Cons>HW>J>Inq   2480  2443  2158  1349  1342   177   1.8
   21   Inq>HotR>Cons>AS>HW>J       2455  2419  2143  1359  1351   413   4.1
   22   Inq>HotR>AS>Cons>HW>J       2471  2437  2153  1343  1336   398   4.0
   23   Inq>AS>HotR>Cons>HW>J       2412  2375  2086  1262  1255   734   5.7
   24   AS>Inq>HotR>Cons>HW>J       2376  2340  2061  1267  1260   739   6.1


Thoughts:
On the guaranteed side of things (ignoring Inq for the moment), high AS priority is good for 3 or fewer mobs, we seem to do better with HotR>Cons>HW>AS queues.

There's a trade-off going on with ShoR, which was expected. Lowering ShoR in the queue tends to drop single-target damage but boost AoE damage.

I have Inq coded to only cast when its duration is less than 1.5 seconds, except for queue #20. In #20, the first Inq behaves as normal while the second one (at the bottom of the queue) just checks for 3 Holy Power. This seems logical, as it's basically saying "I have nothing else to cast in this GCD, but I could refresh Inq a little early to alleviate clashes later." It doesn't seem to have much of an effect unless AS is included (i.e. 3 or fewer mobs); compare to queue #22.

I want to run a few HotR>Cons>HW>AS queues with Inq yet, and probably one of the higher single-target queues with Inq replacing ShoR.

Does anyone have other suggestions/insights/etc? I'm about to go to bed, but I'll have some time to work on this (and hopefully finish it up) this weekend.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby knaughty » Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:06 pm

theckhd wrote:Does anyone have other suggestions/insights/etc?

Well, it's not a very interesting insight, but looking at your "guaranteed" data-set for the columns related to 4+ mobs the tanking strategy of "hit whatever isn't on CD already" is way too close to optimal...

It would be lovely if there was some actual thought and skill involved, but if you're smart enough to switch to HotR and keep Consecrate and Holy Wrath on CD you appear to be 90% of the way to optimal.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby daiceman » Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:26 pm

Could you do some sim's using WoG in aoe situations? Since they bumped up paladin healing threat, I've been wondering how much TPS 1,2 and 3pt word of glories would do in an AoE situation, and how it would compare to just using ShoR, or refreshing Inq early.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby kenshin648 » Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:55 pm

What are the numbers for the 1h sword version of quel'delar?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby M.C. » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:32 pm

theckhd wrote:Time for some collaborative fun with the AoE module (which, by the way, isn't updated in the repository yet, I'm still fooling with priority queues).

Has anybody tried using these AOE rotations?

I found most of them to be rather hard to sustain. JotW is a major source of mana regen. When its priority is so low, you risk running OOM rather quickly, especially if you have a "lucky" streak of GC procs and you decide to use them.

I was running HotR>Cons>HW>AS>ShoR>J and it definitely suffers from this. I assume other rotations have the same problem. Sanctuary helps, naturally, but I had issues with 2 or 3 mobs every once in a while (tanking 4+ melee mobs makes things easier). Needless to say, practicing these rotations on a training dummy is out of question, and Hallowed Ground is mandatory.

@Theck: Do you think you could add mana regen/consumption tracking to your models? This will give us an idea how many mobs you need to tank without running OOM.

Edit: by the way, why is the DPS difference so small between rotations with and without Inquisition? Almost all of our AOE damage is Holy. Shouldn't this mean a 30% DPS increase against non-primary targets?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby tlitp » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:12 pm

M.C. wrote:Do you think you could add mana regen/consumption tracking to your models?

by the way, why is the DPS difference so small between rotations with and without Inquisition?

I. Doable, but we need some things sorted out beforehand. This feature should be available till Cataclysm goes live.
II. There's a blunt answer (i.e. usage/priority of SotR), and there's a more subtle one (right now Vengeance is naively modeled, so there is a fairly significant overshoot for any ability that scales massively with AP).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:23 pm

It also could be a bug in the Inq implementation. I'll take a closer look tomorrow.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Awyndel » Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:00 am

Remember the scaling on sotr is nerfed in beta. Also, while aoeing, like mentioned before, single target dps might matter less then aoe threat. It's a choice.

Yeah I have noticed going oom when not judging too often. Specially when not speced into consecrate. For simplicity's sake I just keep judging and using holy power every cycle, except the pull.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby kirsty » Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:34 am

theckhd wrote:Guaranteed:
Code: Select all
                                             # Mobs
   Q#   Queue                        1     2     3     4     5    Empty   E%
    1   ShoR>HotR>J>AS>Cons>HW      1838  1829  1662  1173  1171     0   0.0
    2   ShoR>HotR>AS>J>Cons>HW      1949  1938  1745  1181  1178    19   0.2
    3   ShoR>HotR>AS>Cons>J>HW      2003  1986  1790  1224  1220    15   0.1
    4   ShoR>HotR>AS>Cons>HW>J      2045  2019  1818  1244  1239   101   1.0
    5   ShoR>HotR>Cons>AS>HW>J      2018  1992  1800  1253  1248   118   1.2
    6   ShoR>HotR>Cons>HW>AS>J      1945  1916  1744  1259  1253   110   1.1
    7   ShoR>HotR>HW>Cons>AS>J      1954  1926  1751  1259  1253    96   1.0
    8   ShoR>AS>HotR>Cons>HW>J      2043  2016  1801  1185  1180   378   3.0
    9   AS>ShoR>HotR>Cons>HW>J      2061  2035  1809  1165  1159   387   2.9
   10   AS>HotR>ShoR>Cons>HW>J      2188  2162  1928  1254  1249   121   1.2
   11   AS>HotR>Cons>ShoR>HW>J      2208  2182  1946  1268  1263   122   1.2
   12   HotR>AS>Cons>ShoR>HW>J      2201  2175  1941  1269  1264   106   1.1
   13   HotR>Cons>AS>ShoR>HW>J      2179  2153  1925  1275  1270   109   1.1
   14   HotR>Cons>HW>AS>ShoR>J      2152  2119  1902  1292  1285   267   2.7
   15   Cons>HotR>AS>ShoR>HW>J      2192  2166  1935  1275  1270   115   1.1
   16   Cons>AS>HotR>ShoR>HW>J      2144  2117  1888  1234  1229   226   2.0
   17   Cons>HW>AS>HotR>ShoR>J      2073  2039  1811  1166  1159   559   5.2
   18   HotR>Cons>HW>AS>Inq>J       2322  2283  2035  1337  1330   513   5.1
   19   HotR>AS>Cons>HW>Inq>J       2416  2381  2103  1312  1305   514   5.1
   20   Inq>HotR>AS>Cons>HW>J>Inq   2480  2443  2158  1349  1342   177   1.8
   21   Inq>HotR>Cons>AS>HW>J       2455  2419  2143  1359  1351   413   4.1
   22   Inq>HotR>AS>Cons>HW>J       2471  2437  2153  1343  1336   398   4.0
   23   Inq>AS>HotR>Cons>HW>J       2412  2375  2086  1262  1255   734   5.7
   24   AS>Inq>HotR>Cons>HW>J       2376  2340  2061  1267  1260   739   6.1




why is the guaranteed damage so different if you look at the number of mobs? i mean, it SHOULD be exactly the same, the only numbers that should matter is 3 (because of AS) and 11+ (because of ae-dmg cap). i mean, all of these enemies are hit by the same attacks, HW, cons and hotr (+AS if 3 mobs or less). for example, rotation #20, 2 mobs get around 2.4k dps, 3 mobs get 2.1k dps. at first i thought this only happened from 2 to 3 mobs, but there is also a slightly difference between 4 to 5 mobs. i thought at first that was only random bad luck, but as ALL rotations do more guaranteed damage to 4 mobs, and less guaranteed damage to 5 mobs (only slightly though) im not so sure anymore.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:53 am

Holy Wrath splits its damage evenly amongst targets, so the net damage per target will inevitably go down as you add targets.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:45 pm

M.C. wrote:@Theck: Do you think you could add mana regen/consumption tracking to your models? This will give us an idea how many mobs you need to tank without running OOM.

Edit: by the way, why is the DPS difference so small between rotations with and without Inquisition? Almost all of our AOE damage is Holy. Shouldn't this mean a 30% DPS increase against non-primary targets?


1) I can, but I doubt it's necessary. In my experience (at 80 anyhow), even with 0/2 HG mana's never been a serious issue regardless of number of mobs. With less than 3, I stick to something like ShoR>HotR>AS>J>Cons>HW, so Cons is pretty low in the queue. For more than 3, the incoming attack rate tends to be self-sustaining even with Cons high in the queue.

2) I found the source of this discrepancy: HammerNova wasn't getting the Inq modifier properly applied to it. Also, keep in mind that some of the queues don't have 100% Inq uptime.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby kirsty » Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:05 pm

ok, i missed that change...thanks a lot.

but, even though holy wrath damage decreases with the number of mobs (per mob at least) there shouldnt be that steep decrease in damage from 2 mobs to 3 mobs. i mean, thats several hundret dps, and looking on your previous calculation where you didnt factor in avangers shield even for 1-3 mobs i cant see this decrease in damage.

also i wonder how you calculated wotl. currently, cs and hotr deal about equal damage, with cs pulling slightly ahead single target (at least fully buffed and everything). i assume that if you wont specc into wotl, and thus wont get 60% damage bonus on cs, this means hammer of the righteous suddenly deals even single target way more damage than cs. wotl thus provides only the difference between hotr and cs plus increased holy wrath, hammer of wrath and judgement damage. did you factor in that you could use a hotr rotation (even single target) without wotl?
personally i guess that if you didnt factor that in, wotl would still be a must-have talent, but "guess" is not as good as "know".

also, it would be nice to know how good which talent would be for ae-tanking, this is of course only possible if we know the ideal rotation, but still. hallowed ground for example really stinks single target, but it definitly outperforms other talents in ae situations.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:28 pm

kirsty wrote:but, even though holy wrath damage decreases with the number of mobs (per mob at least) there shouldnt be that steep decrease in damage from 2 mobs to 3 mobs. i mean, thats several hundret dps, and looking on your previous calculation where you didnt factor in avangers shield even for 1-3 mobs i cant see this decrease in damage.


You're right, there was another bug with the way I was calculating AS damage. Those columns are actually supposed to be for 2-6 mobs, not 1-5 mobs (i.e. the headers I put in by hand are wrong). It's actually the third column that's wrong, since it's getting additional AS damage that it shouldn't.

kirsty wrote:did you factor in that you could use a hotr rotation (even single target) without wotl?

No. I don't think anyone would be daft enough to run a spec without WotL. Even if trying to optimize for AoE, WotL boosts Holy Wrath, so there would be better places to drop points in order to pick up Hallowed Ground (which will probably still be a weak talent for AoE DPS, by the way). Once we're done with the AoE simulations, I can go back and use the coefficients from the simulation to re-evaluate the talents and see how they stack up for AoE.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby kirsty » Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:14 pm

theckhd wrote:I don't think anyone would be daft enough to run a spec without WotL.


that was not my point. my point was, that the calculation is not really correct. most of the dps you get from WotL is because of the 60% dmg buff for crusader strike. as i said, i really dont believe that its a good thing to go without WotL, but it would still be nice to know how much tps WotL EXACTLY gets you.


i tried to calculate this on my own, but got some fishy results. i took the damage values from your ability damage chart and divided them by the time i would use the ability, and then subtracted the amount the talent is responsible for.

this way, judgement with 7178 net dmg unglyphed divided through 1.6 for the talent got me 4486 for untalented dmg. the difference is 2691, divided through 9 for dps, because you use jot every 9 secs, and also divided through 2 for 2 talent points resulted in 149.5 dps per point.

the same for cs would result in 271.75 dps, which is together with jot bonus already WAY higher than your numbers for each talent point. (which are around 300 dps)
for holy wrath i took the raw dmg of hw and multiplied by 0,075 (0,3 crit chance, only 50% bonus dmg) and divided through 15 it should result in 18,645 dps. how is a bit complicated, i just assumed the time below 20% would be 15% of the bosstime which seemed lower than the actual bosstime would be. this way, how got me 20.3 dps. until now we are already at 460 dps per point, which is 50% higher than your value. if i add the difference between cs dps and hotr dps instead of the dps bonus i get from cs, i would get 48 dps bonus instead of 271, which would add up to 236.5 dps for 1 point of wotl.

you see, either way i get completly wrong results, somehow not even near your value. maybe you can show me where i made a mistake? or perhaps something weird is going on in the code...i simply cant explain the high discrepancy between your values and mine.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:40 pm

Hm... apparently the talent spec sim was only applying self-buffs, which explains why the values don't match up. Fixing that gives me about 450 DPS per point for WotL. I'll upload updated data and plots shortly.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:09 pm

AoE Rotation Simulations

Setup:
Race: Human (hardly matters)
Talents: 0/31/5 with all prot damage talents + Crusade
Glyphs: SoT/ShoR/HotR for Prime, AS for Major
Seal: SoT
Gear: T10 sample set
Rotation: N/A
Buffs: Full Raid, Full Vengeance
Code: calc_prio_aoe.m
Revision: r169
Date: 6 November 2010

These are very similar to the single-target rotation simulations. The primary difference is the damage metrics we calculate.

For AoE, we care about two things: the damage to our primary target (in case we're burning things down one by one) and the "guaranteed" damage to all secondary targets. Guaranteed damage thus only includes HammerNova, Holy Wrath, Consecration, and for 3 or fewer targets, unglyphed Avenger's Shield.

I've included Inquisition in the queues below, even though it's irrelevant at 80. It shows up three different ways (Inq, Inq*, and Inq**) that indicate different conditionals:
Inq: 3 Holy Power and duration of Inq < 1.5s
Inq*: 3 Holy Power
Inq**: 1+ Holy Power


Code: Select all
                                    Primary       DPS/mob for # Mobs   
   Q#                                  DPS      2     3     4     5     6    Inq   Empty   E%
    1   ShoR>HotR>J>AS>Cons>HW        8294   1833  1824  1175  1173  1171     0%      0   0.0
    2   ShoR>HotR>AS>J>Cons>HW        8274   1955  1944  1178  1175  1173     0%     34   0.1
    3   ShoR>HotR>AS>Cons>J>HW        8201   2010  1993  1232  1226  1223     0%     37   0.1
    4   ShoR>HotR>AS>Cons>HW>J        8042   2040  2015  1252  1245  1240     0%    349   1.2
    5   ShoR>HotR>Cons>AS>HW>J        8029   2034  2008  1260  1252  1247     0%    361   1.2
    6   ShoR>HotR>Cons>HW>AS>J        7987   1949  1921  1267  1259  1253     0%    357   1.2
    7   ShoR>HotR>HW>Cons>AS>J        8001   1961  1933  1269  1261  1255     0%    333   1.1
    8   ShoR>AS>HotR>Cons>HW>J        7971   2064  2038  1189  1181  1176     0%   1042   2.7
    9   AS>ShoR>HotR>Cons>HW>J        7968   2064  2038  1172  1165  1159     0%   1122   2.8
   10   AS>HotR>ShoR>Cons>HW>J        7872   2179  2153  1261  1253  1248     0%    351   1.2
   11   AS>HotR>Cons>ShoR>HW>J        7802   2203  2176  1275  1268  1262     0%    360   1.2
   12   HotR>AS>Cons>ShoR>HW>J        7806   2194  2168  1277  1269  1264     0%    343   1.1
   13   HotR>Cons>AS>ShoR>HW>J        7816   2190  2163  1283  1275  1270     0%    297   1.0
   14   HotR>Cons>HW>AS>ShoR>J        7442   2169  2135  1302  1292  1285     0%    820   2.7
   15   Cons>HotR>AS>ShoR>HW>J        7818   2192  2166  1283  1275  1270     0%    324   1.1
   16   Cons>AS>HotR>ShoR>HW>J        7825   2145  2118  1242  1234  1228     0%    653   1.9
   17   Cons>HW>AS>HotR>ShoR>J        7541   2077  2043  1182  1172  1165     0%   1565   4.9

   18   Inq*>HotR>J>AS>Cons>HW        7598   2418  2406  1551  1547  1545   100%      0   0.0
   19   Inq>HotR>J>AS>Cons>HW         7477   2600  2572  1626  1618  1612   100%    950   3.2
   20   Inq>HotR>AS>Cons>HW>J         7357   2756  2721  1658  1648  1641   100%   1187   4.0
   21   Inq>HotR>Cons>AS>HW>J         7324   2742  2706  1672  1662  1654   100%   1244   4.1
   22   Inq>HotR>Cons>HW>AS>J         7248   2656  2619  1675  1664  1656   100%   1477   4.9
   23   Inq>HotR>HW>Cons>AS>J         7278   2678  2636  1679  1666  1658   100%   1099   3.7
   24   Inq>HotR>Cons>HW>AS>J>Inq*    7338   2712  2672  1681  1669  1661   100%    795   2.6
   25   Inq>HotR>Cons>HW>AS>J>Inq**   7392   2735  2692  1687  1674  1666   100%      0   0.0
   26   HotR>Inq>Cons>HW>AS>J         7254   2661  2624  1675  1664  1656   100%   1453   4.8
   27   HotR>Inq>Cons>HW>AS>J>Inq*    7346   2713  2673  1681  1669  1661   100%    773   2.6
   28   HotR>Inq>Cons>HW>AS>J>Inq**   7392   2741  2698  1687  1675  1666   100%      0   0.0
   29   HotR>Inq>AS>Cons>HW>J>Inq*    7440   2788  2751  1662  1651  1643   100%    551   1.8
   30   HotR>Inq>AS>Cons>HW>J>Inq**   7471   2813  2775  1665  1653  1646   100%      0   0.0
   31   HotR>Cons>HW>AS>Inq>J         7018   2564  2525  1575  1563  1555    75%   1490   5.0
   32   HotR>Cons>HW>AS>Inq>J>Inq**   7298   2704  2662  1640  1627  1619    89%      0   0.0
   33   HotR>AS>Cons>HW>Inq>J         7071   2631  2596  1545  1535  1528    72%   1489   5.0
   34   Inq>AS>HotR>Cons>HW>J         7354   2687  2650  1547  1536  1529   100%   2230   5.7
   35   AS>Inq>HotR>Cons>HW>J         7317   2683  2648  1560  1549  1542    97%   2101   5.7


Observations:
  • There's a pretty clear trade-off between Primary and Secondary DPS. If we just replace CS with HotR in the standard 939, we get our maximum DPS on the primary target, but a near-minimum on secondary targets. By shifting the queue around to favor AoE abilities, we lose Primary DPS but gain Secondary DPS.
  • The differences we're talking about here aren't very large. Just using a 9H9 clone of the single target rotation nets you 90% of the secondary DPS that the optimum rotation (#14) does.
  • HotR is the bread-and-butter of our AoE dps. The queues with high HotR priority tend to outperform anything else in secondary damage.
  • High AS priority is a boost to secondary DPS on 2-3 adds, as expected.
  • For general purpose AoE, HotR>Cons>HW>AS>(everything else) seems to be the optimal queue.
  • There's a lot of interesting insight to be had from the Inq rotations, even if it's irrelevant at 80.
    • Even though it creates empty GCDs, it's better to wait until Inq is about to run out to refresh it.
    • It's actually a bit better to prioritize HotR over Inq
    • Refreshing Inq early, even with less than 3 Holy Power, is a DPS increase over an empty GCD.
    • Dropping Inq in the queue sacrifices uptime, which is a flat-out dps loss
    • Again, AS priorities tend to do well on 2-3 mobs, though it's still a DPS loss to prioritize it above HotR or Inq.

TLDR Summary:
  • At 80, your best pure AoE queue is generally HotR>Cons>HW>AS>(ShoR or WoG)>J. Bump J up if you have mana troubles.
  • For cleave tanking, move ShoR back up to the top of the queue for extra single-target threat.
  • Mixing the rotation up doesn't make a huge difference in threat. As long as you're casting something every GCD, you're going to be pretty close to optimal.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby M.C. » Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:09 am

theckhd wrote:1) I can, but I doubt it's necessary. In my experience (at 80 anyhow), even with 0/2 HG mana's never been a serious issue regardless of number of mobs. With less than 3, I stick to something like ShoR>HotR>AS>J>Cons>HW, so Cons is pretty low in the queue. For more than 3, the incoming attack rate tends to be self-sustaining even with Cons high in the queue.

I am not sure where the differences are coming from, but it has been an issue for me (which is why I posted it in the first place). In any case, it would be nice if cleave rotations that aren't sustainable mana-wise are excluded from the simulation.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:58 am

M.C. wrote:I am not sure where the differences are coming from, but it has been an issue for me (which is why I posted it in the first place). In any case, it would be nice if cleave rotations that aren't sustainable mana-wise are excluded from the simulation.


It's not easy to draw a line between sustainable and non-sustainable though. That will depend on a lot of environmental factors:
  • How many mobs are you fighting?
  • What sort of attack speed do they have?
  • Are they caster mobs or melee mobs?
  • What sort of block % do you have? (i.e. Have you reforged heavily for mastery or not?)
  • Are you utilizing GC procs or not? (if you're even specced for it)
  • Do you have Consecration glyphed?

AoE is going to be a lot more subjective from now on, I'm afraid. Even if one rotation is a few DPS higher than another, there will be situations where you'll be better off breaking that rotation to front-load threat or hold a spell back to utilize it more efficiently (HW as a stun or Cons placement on multiple targets, for example). A good paladin's just going to have to be practiced and recognize those situations and react accordingly, which includes watching his resources and slipping Judgement in when necessary.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:12 am

Also, I posted the Enchant/Food analysis on the first page of the thread.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby polonadis » Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:45 pm

theckhd wrote:Also, I posted the Enchant/Food analysis on the first page of the thread.


on the topic of enchants and professions :

I would like to ask US players to create a thread on US forums asking the blue posters if there are any stam/str/int/spirit enchants planned for the wrist slot. The reason why I ask you to do this is that if there are no plans to make these stats available then Leatherworking will pull WAY ahead - both for tanks and dpsers - of other professions in perks departament, and the EU forums are quite neglected by the devs.

Thanks in advance.


more on that topic here
Last edited by polonadis on Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Epimer » Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:26 am

The Enchant/Food Comparison shortcut currently links to the Glyph Comparison sub-section.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Awyndel » Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:34 am

Could we perhaps get a flask/elixer comparison, and one for haste and crit pots?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby tlitp » Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:22 am

Awyndel, not to unleash an acid reply : I promise that I'll personally get you the critical stuff that you're after - that is, if you get me the results I'm interested in. Does it sound like a fair deal ? :P
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby agetro » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:55 am

I'm curious. Does the Min and Max Damage of a weapon matter? Yesterday I purchased the Wrathful Gladiator's Cleaver because it looks awesome! But I don't see any information for it on this post. Granted I lose 3 points of expertise for not using the 251 Mace from 10M Marrowgar, I figured I would just reforge a bit to get those points back.

The difference between the Slicer and the Cleaver is the Min Damage on the Cleaver is 412, whearas the Slicer is at 471. But the Max Damage on Cleaver is 767; Slicer 708. Does this really matter?
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