Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.X)

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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1)

Postby ouchmyface » Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:57 am

In light of the changes to holy shield, is going for the block cap still recommended or even viable? Also, would the desirable amount of dodge and parry change?

Also, I'm slightly confused about the math behind block and armor damage reduction. If a boss did 100,000 physical damage and I blocked it'd be reduced to 60,000 (assuming holy shield is up) and if i had ~60% damage reduction would that 60,000 then be reduced to 36,000? If I had used divine protection in this situation, how does that change the final damage? I'm not very inclined mathematically (though i truly wish i was) so this isn't totally obvious to me.

To me it seems that currently, given the nature of massive spiky damage and the seemingly endless stream of heals, block is an extremely powerful stat. But at 85 health pools are suppose to be larger and the mana game is suppose to be the real issue for healers. It makes me thing that the perception of "spikiness" may not be such an issue.

I apologize if these things have been addressed and I'm just missing them. Directing me to the appropriate thread would be more than a sufficient response.
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1)

Postby DisRuptive1 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:58 pm

You mentioned the parry rating (931) needed in order for mastery to improve survivability more than parry and said 931 was the turning point. What's the rating for dodge (you only gave the percentage, not the rating)?
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1)

Postby lythac » Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:14 am

ouchmyface wrote:Also, I'm slightly confused about the math behind block and armor damage reduction. If a boss did 100,000 physical damage and I blocked it'd be reduced to 60,000 (assuming holy shield is up) and if i had ~60% damage reduction would that 60,000 then be reduced to 36,000? If I had used divine protection in this situation, how does that change the final damage? I'm not very inclined mathematically (though i truly wish i was) so this isn't totally obvious to me.


100000 reduced by armor 60%, you take 40% damage. 100000 * 0.4 = 40000
40000 reduced by block 40%, you take 60% damage. 40000 * 0.6 = 24000
24000 reduced by divine protection 20%, you take 80% damage. 24000 * 0.8 = 19200

When you calculated your ~60% damage reduction from armor you only reduced the damage taken by 40% and not the 60% which is why we have different answers (your 36k to my 24k).

You get the same answer by taking the damage from block first but the damage reduction from armor and talents should come first - it mattered when block was a static amount. Now everything is % based you should end up with the same answer. Any damage reduction from Power Word:Shield and our WoG Shield (?) are taken off last.

Sanctuary (and any other damage reducing effect) works in the same way, you reduce the damage by 10%, taking 90%.
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1)

Postby sculder » Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:31 am

DisRuptive1 wrote:You mentioned the parry rating (931) needed in order for mastery to improve survivability more than parry and said 931 was the turning point. What's the rating for dodge (you only gave the percentage, not the rating)?


Dodge is affected by agility, so in order to figure out the exact rating for the DR point, you'd have to assume a few things, including agi buffs and base agi (both of which changes from character to character). Also a bit of clarification, these DR points aren't the point where mastery will give more avoidance percentage, it's the point where an equal amount of parry/dodge rating will give more than 0.3*block% gained from an equal amount of mastery. It's basically the point where you'll take more theoretical damage, based on what side of the line you're on.
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1)

Postby Thelmiance » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:24 am

Thus, you take less damage if the avoidance you lose is less than 0.3 times the block% you gain.

Assume 10 of each stat. Mastery is fixed at 45.906 rating per point of mastery, and each point gives us 2% block. 10 mastery therefore gives us 0.43567% block, and we'd need 10 parry to give us less than 0.1307 avoidance for the trade to be worthwhile.

According to the matlab model, that occurs when you have 931 parry rating, or 21.21% parry on your character sheet.

It's the same calculation for dodge, but since we have more base dodge it comes out to 21.6% dodge on your character sheet. To get that in rating, you need to assume a particular level of agility buffs, so it's probably just easier to work in percentages.


It seems like we should need to re-do this calculation. I haven't seen that done anywhere else yet, and it certainly isn't updated in the first post on this thread, and I was curious as to how the numbers looked anyway.

Following Theck's original logic, with the block value buff, you take less damage if the avoidance you lose is less than 0.4 times the block% you gain.

Mastery is fixed at 45.906 rating per point of mastery, and each point gives us 2.25% block. 10 mastery therefore gives us 0.49013% block, and we'd need 10 dodge/parry to give us less than 0.1961 avoidance for the trade to be worthwhile. Undiminished, dodge and parry give .2210 avoidance per 10 points.

At that point, it seems pretty clear that we're always going to be in the realm of reforging to get mastery being a net damage reduction. Of course, that only applies at 80. I haven't seen clear numbers on what the ratings look like at 85, but it shouldn't be hard to work out, given those numbers.
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1)

Postby Malthrax » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:01 pm

Thelmiance wrote: I haven't seen clear numbers on what the ratings look like at 85, but it shouldn't be hard to work out, given those numbers.

http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t29453-comb ... cataclysm/

@L85
Dodge & Parry are 176.71899 rating per 1%
Mastery is 179.28 rating per 1%

Following Theck's original logic, with the block value buff, you take less damage if the avoidance you lose is less than 0.4 times the block% you gain.

Mastery is fixed at 179.28 rating per point of mastery, and each point gives us 2.25% block. 10 mastery therefore gives us 0.12550% block, and we'd need 10 dodge/parry to give us less than 0.05020 avoidance for the trade to be worthwhile. Undiminished, dodge and parry give 0.05658 avoidance per 10 points.



I need more coffee...
Last edited by Malthrax on Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:12 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1)

Postby theckhd » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:02 pm

Yup, your math looks correct. So when this change goes through, it will be nearly impossible to reforge away enough avoidance to make mastery the less attractive option. We'll get enough parry rating from STR to push us over, and probably enough dodge just from agility raid buffs.

<edit> The short version of the formula would be:

Threshold level = (1/Cm)*2.25*0.4
Undiminished avoidance per rating point = (1/Ca)

Where Cm and Ca are the conversion factors for mastery and avoidance, respectively. At level 85, the threshold level is 0.0050201, and the undiminished avoidance per rating point is 0.0056587. So we'll be in pretty much the same position.

At level 80 with the new coefficients, mastery eclipses parry or dodge once we receive 234 rating (or 4.997%) from DR sources, meaning that it's a net intake reduction all the way down 10% total parry (or dodge).

At level 85, it happens at 942 rating (5.139%), just above 10% total.
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1)

Postby Thelmiance » Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:00 pm

Theck, do you have a simplified formula for doing DR calculations? I realize it depends on a few things, but with the elimination of defense it should be a little bit simpler. I'd like to play around with doing some point weightings for gearing purposes, but all the DR posts I've come across are hopelessly outdated.
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1)

Postby theckhd » Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:23 pm

The avoid_dr module of the matlabadin project contains all of the current DR calculations. You should be able to read it in plain text and see what's going on. If I find some time, I can type up the logic used in the code, it's fairly simple now that defense is gone (as you correctly guessed).
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1)

Postby Thelmiance » Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:46 pm

Let's see...

So, diminished dodge is:
1/
( (1 / dodge_cap) + (avoidance_coefficient / undiminished_dodge) )

Where
dodge_cap is 65.63
avoidance_coefficient is .956
undiminished_dodge is (dodge_rating / rating_per_dodge) + (agi / agi_per_dodge)
rating_per_dodge is 176.7189 (at 85)
agi_per_dodge is 304.507 (at 85)

and then similar for parry, except
shouldn't there be a strength->parry conversion in there? I don't see that in the code.

And then at the end of those, there's some base dodge/parry that gets added in. Yes?
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1)

Postby theckhd » Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:32 pm

Yup. The STR->Parry conversion is in another section of the code since that's all pre-DR. It's buried somewhere in the stat_model file.
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1)

Postby Thelmiance » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:23 pm

theckhd wrote:Yup. The STR->Parry conversion is in another section of the code since that's all pre-DR. It's buried somewhere in the stat_model file.


The parry from strength isn't affected by DR? Or did I misunderstand that?
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1)

Postby theckhd » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:36 pm

Thelmiance wrote:
theckhd wrote:Yup. The STR->Parry conversion is in another section of the code since that's all pre-DR. It's buried somewhere in the stat_model file.


The parry from strength isn't affected by DR? Or did I misunderstand that?


You misunderstood (or I wasn't clear). The STR->Parry conversion happens before diminishing returns is applied, and is bundled into your character sheet parry rating. That character sheet parry rating is the value that gets fed to avoid_dr as an input, which is why it's not a separate input like agility is.

Agility is handled differently because it's a direct agi->dodge (again, pre-DR) conversion.

(You could, of course, pretend that agi converts to dodge rating and feed the function 0 agility and some "effective dodge rating" that included parry, but that effective dodge rating wouldn't match the character sheet dodge rating then, which is annoying for debugging things).
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1)

Postby Thelmiance » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:55 pm

theckhd wrote: The STR->Parry conversion happens before diminishing returns is applied, and is bundled into your character sheet parry rating.


Ah, I wasn't aware that it actually converts into rating. Odd that the two mechanics are different.
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Re: Reforging/Mastery/Block Cap Compilation Guide (4.0.1)

Postby Griffith » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:07 pm

Neptuno wrote:
Amonet wrote:Hey guys

I've been reading some theorycrafting and this topic has left me with a question:

Atm, without any buffs, I'm at 84.20 Blockcap (without the 15% from HS), to reach the blockcap I appernaly need to get 87.2, which is 3%. I have everything, except for my libram, reforged to mastery rating to getting closer to the cap (My libram was reforged to +hit instead of dodge in order to maintain the Hitcap).

Currently I'm wearing two HP trinkets - Sindragosa's Flawless Fang and Corroded Skeleton Key. Is it worth replacing one of these, for a +dodge / parry or even block trinket - to get block capped? Or am I already blockcapped raidbuffed? Cause I'm not too sure about how much % the 155agi/str, kings etc will give alltogether.
Or should I change my back enchant to 22 agi (instead of armor, yes I know, the value has gone down) and glove enchant to 2% threat/10parry (instead of 18STAM) and shield enchant to 20dodge rating? I'm guessing it won't get me at the desired block cap.

Another question (somewhat related): What is more important now (and obviously in Cataclysm): Getting high HP, or making sure of being blockcapped and then getting High HP / EH?

Looking forward to a comment(s) ^^

P.S. Sorry if this was explained in some previous comments, haven't read through all of them.

Amonet

102.4 - 2.4 (kings+battle shout) - 15 (holy shield) - 5 (miss) = 80%


isn't the 5% miss already in the script from the OP?
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