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Vengence questions

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Vengence questions

Postby kennywu » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:48 am

So, after a few raids on my Tankadin post patch, there are a few questions/observations I'd like to throw at the Maintankadin communtity.

To begin, if I understand correctly, the attack power that Vengence provides us increases proportional to the damage that Tankadins take. If this is true, does the value of avoidance (dodge/parry) decrease as mastery's(block's) value increases? In other words, why would Tankadins gem/enchants/gear for avoidance if those stats would decrease the value Vengence. Will there be a point where Tankadins stack stamina and mastery while only taking a minimum amount of parry and dodge to get to the block cap?

Another observation I had came last night after H Lady Deathwhisper. During the second phase, I was having a difficult time generating enough threat on her after the MT had too many stacks of the threat debuff. I understand that H LD's second phase is about threat management, but I never incurred this problem pre-patch. I began to think on this: Is Blizz expecting Tankadins to generate and keep threat realative to our Vengence? If so, during a fight as the mentioned H LD, if I am not tanking and not taking damage, threat generation is nerfed due to not having any Vengence stacks. I may not be understanding the mechanics of Vengence and how it relates to threat generation, so feel free to point my thinking in the right direction.

Maybe I am focusing on Vengence too much as a tank, but when I see 90,000K SoR crits I know it's damage/threat comes from it.

-Kywu
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Re: Vengence questions

Postby Protigy » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:26 pm

kennywu wrote:To begin, if I understand correctly, the attack power that Vengence provides us increases proportional to the damage that Tankadins take. If this is true, does the value of avoidance (dodge/parry) decrease as mastery's(block's) value increases? In other words, why would Tankadins gem/enchants/gear for avoidance if those stats would decrease the value Vengence. Will there be a point where Tankadins stack stamina and mastery while only taking a minimum amount of parry and dodge to get to the block cap?

1) Yes, that is how Vengeance works.

2) If you are going for 102.4%, you will be sacrificing Dodge/Parry on gear for Mastery, so I believe this answers your question. Depends on how you define "value."

3) Those Paladins are probably less concerned about threat and more concerned about reduction in incoming damage. Speaking specifically on pre-Cata content on fights like LDW and HLK (p1), you will need to utilize your HoSalv appropriately on every attempt and almost religiously be ready for it when it's off of CD. Due to inconsistencies in Vengeance stacking and AS procs, your tps will either be lackluster or astounding. There have been HLK attempts that in p1 I have had at least 500k more threat than the top dps while other attempts melee dps has pulled off of me with relative ease. HoSalv management plays a key role in threat-significant fights. Use it wisely. The other option is to slap on some dps pieces or a dps trinket if you can handle the hits.

4) I believe that is a good "general" concept to consider when reforging your gear. The less avoidance you bring into a fight should be countered by more EH, thereby decreasing the chances of dying to fast hits. I don't think that point will come until the first tier of Cata raiding, though. Pre-Cata you are basically set if you are Block-capped, have dps with threat meters and reliable, good healers. Cata 5-man dungeons will probably not change much as long as you are getting hit and Vengeance is stacking up.

kennywu wrote:Another observation I had came last night after H Lady Deathwhisper. During the second phase, I was having a difficult time generating enough threat on her after the MT had too many stacks of the threat debuff. I understand that H LD's second phase is about threat management, but I never incurred this problem pre-patch. I began to think on this: Is Blizz expecting Tankadins to generate and keep threat realative to our Vengence? If so, during a fight as the mentioned H LD, if I am not tanking and not taking damage, threat generation is nerfed due to not having any Vengence stacks. I may not be understanding the mechanics of Vengence and how it relates to threat generation, so feel free to point my thinking in the right direction.

Vengeance does play a significant role in tps at current and don't expect that to change in Cata. You mention that the "MT had too many stacks," so my question to you is what class were they? If they are not a Paladin, then why not have you tank LDW first until first swap? Keep in mind most, if not all of the damage you are taking from LDW will not make your Vengeance get high by any means, so your tps will need to come from MDs and strict rotation priority management to maximize tps. The casters will undoubtably be riding you on threat and will need to in almost all cases swap to adds when they get high. Remind all of your dps that it's better to sacrifice dps to prevent a wipe in order to maximize your efficiency (time) in the instance. If you have people raiding who are parse hunting and peel the boss off the tank(s), they need to be talked to, benched or replaced. Wasting 10 minutes and running back to re-do a fight that early on can negatively impact the remainder of your raid night. General Raiding Concepts 101.

In closing, you are right about Vengeance and how it generally works. Having an additional 8,000-9,000 AP will skyrocket your SotR hits and nomnom crits and will push even your melee tps much higher than without Vengeance. Take the above suggestions if you'd like. Hope it helps!
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Re: Vengence questions

Postby d503 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:23 pm

kennywu wrote:Another observation I had came last night after H Lady Deathwhisper. During the second phase, I was having a difficult time generating enough threat on her after the MT had too many stacks of the threat debuff. I understand that H LD's second phase is about threat management, but I never incurred this problem pre-patch. I began to think on this: Is Blizz expecting Tankadins to generate and keep threat realative to our Vengence? If so, during a fight as the mentioned H LD, if I am not tanking and not taking damage, threat generation is nerfed due to not having any Vengence stacks. I may not be understanding the mechanics of Vengence and how it relates to threat generation, so feel free to point my thinking in the right direction.


To boot, I think that Blizzard will be less likely to design tank swapping encounters that focus on over-taking the main tank since Misdirect and Tricks are gone as a method of catching up. Those spells were pivotal in getting the offtank to overtake the maintank on Deathwhisper (although we used a single tank strat on heroic).

Here's to hoping!
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Re: Vengence questions

Postby lythac » Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:45 am

They might just make all bosses tauntable (that need it) and after a tank swap the new OT stops attacking/turns off RF etc. Taunts currently can't miss, odd to make that change and then to remove tank swap fights.
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Re: Vengence questions

Postby Malthrax » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:05 am

kennywu wrote:Another observation I had came last night after H Lady Deathwhisper. During the second phase, I was having a difficult time generating enough threat on her after the MT had too many stacks of the threat debuff. I understand that H LD's second phase is about threat management, but I never incurred this problem pre-patch. I began to think on this: Is Blizz expecting Tankadins to generate and keep threat realative to our Vengence? If so, during a fight as the mentioned H LD, if I am not tanking and not taking damage, threat generation is nerfed due to not having any Vengence stacks. I may not be understanding the mechanics of Vengence and how it relates to threat generation, so feel free to point my thinking in the right direction.


You should be tanking H-LDW in phase 2, that way you can drive your threat through the ceiling, bubble off the 5-stack of Insignificance, and keep going. Meanwhile, your DPS should be managing their own threat. Specific to this fight, its not your job to stay ahead of them - its their job to not overtake you.
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