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[DK Blood Tank] 4.0.1 Rotation Help

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[DK Blood Tank] 4.0.1 Rotation Help

Postby Kiorken » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:48 am

Hello all,

Been reading up on DK tank strategies on Elitistjerks, and (gasp!) the official forums, but people seem to be confused whether the rotation is mostly the same as pre-patch (IT, PS, HS, HS, DS), or if you just spam DS until you can't, then HS til you can't. Also, there is a confusion on whether you just spam BB when you are AOE tanking. What are you guys' consensus on single target, and AOE tanking on you Blood DK? I would love to tank again on her, but I'm afraid of jacking it up!
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Re: [DK Blood Tank] 4.0.1 Rotation Help

Postby Korola » Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:39 am

The biggest change is to your rune cool downs. They take longer. I’m not sure how much you know about them, but I will write this as if you don’t.

The new rune system will change how runes regenerate, from filling simultaneously to filling sequentially. For example, if you use two Blood runes, then the first rune will fill up before the second one starts to fill up. Essentially, you have three sets of runes filling every 10 seconds instead of six individual runes filling every 10 seconds. (Haste will cause runes to fill faster.) Another way to think of this is having three runes that go up to 200% each (allowing extra "storage"), rather than six runes that go up to 100% each.

With this change, you will be forced to spend them rather than mash them. The priority system will take precedence. There are, as you have mentioned, a lot of arguments right now.

From Ghostcrawler -

This sounds like it will slow down DK attacks, and it will to a point. That's part of what we're trying to accomplish. We can then fill those extra GCDs with things like free abilities or runic power abilities or we have room to add talents that make runes fill faster. Remember, slow attacks can hit harder though. Instead of DKs hitting fast like a rogue, they'll hit slower and harder, like a warrior, which fits a lot of player's image of a DK anyway. Dual wield will hit faster of course.

Runic Empowerment is the counterbalance to this new system.

Runic Empowerment Passive

When you use your Death Coil, Frost Strike, or Rune Strike ability, you have a 45% chance to activate a random fully depleted rune.

I will state my opinion as to how I have played since 4.0 was released.

Trivial Mobs AoE (No Diseases)

Death and Decay on pull, Rune Strike tab through targets, Death Strike best spent unholy and frost pair, threat from heal and procs your mastery, Heart Strike good threat, hits 3 targets, Blood Boil only used if there are 4+ mobs. The more you pull, the more chance at Rune Strike and the more chance you have at Runic Empowerment.

*If you are rune starved and you can’t get a rune strike proc (from dodge or parry) – you can dump Death Coil for runic empowerment. It is a DPS and TPS loss on damage alone to do it so it is not recommended.

I don’t bother with diseases on stuff that dies quick. It isn’t worth the time right now. When we get Outbreak at 81; that will be a good opener.


Trivial Boss (No Diseases)

I will open with Icy Touch, Plague Strike, Heart Strike, Death Strike, Heart Strike, Blood Tap, DUMP Rune Strike and then mix and match how to spend my death runes. There is some argument on trivial stuff if diseases are worth it, I usually do, but if go go go DPS is on your heels, you could skip diseases. This is only on trivial stuff that isn’t going to last long. I mainly do it out of habit. Assuming you skip diseases, you could always do HS – DS – HS – DS and dump RS whenever it was up. It is really borked right now because magical bosses don’t activate your rune strike enough. They are planning to change that in a future build by making RS cost more (30 RP), removing the requirement to dodge or parry, and lowering the damage modifier to 150%. It will give blood more of a rotation and allow you to spend your RP when you feel like you need that big boost. You should also insert Dancing Rune Weapon for a big threat boost at the start. With the glyph it gives a nice boost to your threat and +20% parry isn’t too bad either.


Progression Trash (No Diseases)

There isn’t really any difficult trash if you are decently geared. Extremely large pulls would be the closest we could get right now. On a large pull you would want the attack power debuff from Blood Boil. The AoE priority would be

Death and Decay
Blood Boil
Death Strike (assuming this is a large dangerous pull)
Rune Strike (should be up all the time)

Death and Decay will get them stuck to you with the 2pc T10 and the glyph (which you can swap in and out now for cheap). Blood Boil hits decent enough on large packs. Once again, when we get Outbreak at 81, Blood Boil will become very attractive on big pulls. Death Strike for survival and tab Rune Strike for threat. 4pc T10 has a very nice damage reduction built in with Blood Tap (12% for 10 seconds every 30 seconds with the talent), and I use Blood Tap almost as much of a utility as I do a defensive cool down.


Progression Boss (Diseases)

Icy Touch, Plague Strike, Dancing Rune Weapon (as soon as RP permits) Heart Strike, Death Strike, Blood Tap, RS if up, Death Strike.

The priority is get diseases up and keep them up. There is a camp of people who don’t bother with diseases. I think the majority of them though only do so if there is another tank who can bring the -20% debuff. Once again, Outbreak will make us more complete by getting all our diseases up instantly for no cost, making Blood Boil more viable on multiple targets by not losing as much damage (and by adding the 10% damage reduction - making blood boil pretty powerful)

Tank swaps can be rough if you are with a jack ass co-tank now. You don't have Icy Slam to cover him and on swap your Rune Strike won't be up. It can get hairy if you get unlucky. Hopefully your co-tank isn't a jack ass. If he is, Dancing Rune Weapon is a big help here.



Anyways, it really feels intuitive now with all our cool downs. I know some people don’t like it; I am not one of them. I like it even though I am somewhat of a novice at it.

**I also welcome comments and feedback to what I posted.
Last edited by Korola on Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:00 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: [DK Blood Tank] 4.0.1 Rotation Help

Postby kennywu » Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:41 am

Go diseaseless. Just BB and DnD mobs and HS/DS/RS single target. DS's health return doesn't depend on diseases. Drop talents that boost/scale on diseases and you have a simple DK tank rotation that still generates considerable threat.
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Re: [DK Blood Tank] 4.0.1 Rotation Help

Postby Dantriges » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:21 am

If diseaseless is possible, it wil probably vanish in 4.0.3. Blizzard is not fond of diseaseless damage or TPS so they will probably hit diseaseless with the nerfbat.
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Re: [DK Blood Tank] 4.0.1 Rotation Help

Postby Korola » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:31 am

Dantriges wrote:If diseaseless is possible, it wil probably vanish in 4.0.3. Blizzard is not fond of diseaseless damage or TPS so they will probably hit diseaseless with the nerfbat.


Outbreak
30 yd range
Instant
1 min cooldown

Instantly applies Blood Plague and Frost Fever to the target enemy.


Spell Details

Duration n/a
School Physical
Mechanic n/a
Dispel type n/a

Cost None*
Range 30 yards (Medium)
Cast time Instant
Cooldown 1 minute
Effect #1 Trigger Spell Blood Plague

Effect #2 Trigger Spell Frost Fever

*This will make it much easier to just use diseases.

So rather than a nerf, they gave them a very nice utility with a 30 yard range that does what 3 spells used to (IT - PS - Pest). We don't get it till 81.

The short answer is that diseases are not worth it on multiple targets currently.

Pestilence
1 Blood
Melee Range
Instant
Spreads existing Blood Plague and Frost Fever infections from your target to all other enemies within 10 yards. Diseases spread this way deal 50% of normal damage.

Not that the disease damage is very big, it just takes a blood rune almost better spent on a HS. A 20% increase to HS is good on a long fight, but as it was already mentioned -

1. Death Strike is unaffected by diseases
2. Rune Strike is unaffected by diseases
3. Heart Strike gets +10% per disease

The game in it's current state makes diseases very unappealing, but that will change on December 7th when Outbreak will give you a free 20% boost to your BB and HS.
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Re: [DK Blood Tank] 4.0.1 Rotation Help

Postby d503 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:27 am

Korola wrote:So rather than a nerf, they gave them a very nice utility with a 30 yard range that does what 3 spells used to (IT - PS - Pest). We don't get it till 81.


I'm confused as to how Outbreak does the job of pestilence. It doesn't get those free diseases on all targets, so technically you'd still have to Pest on an AOE pack if you wanted to get diseases on them all, no?
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Re: [DK Blood Tank] 4.0.1 Rotation Help

Postby Korola » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:52 am

d503 wrote:
Korola wrote:So rather than a nerf, they gave them a very nice utility with a 30 yard range that does what 3 spells used to (IT - PS - Pest). We don't get it till 81.


I'm confused as to how Outbreak does the job of pestilence. It doesn't get those free diseases on all targets, so technically you'd still have to Pest on an AOE pack if you wanted to get diseases on them all, no?


Outbreak applies both Blood Plague and Frost Fever at the same time. Instantly. Full effect of Frost Fever and Blood Plague in an instant 30 yard spell. For no cost. Currently you have to do an IT - PS - Pest to spread them all. And that currently cuts the disease damage in half on the spread targets. The only problem with this spell is that we don't get it until 81. After that Epidemic Rank 3 will get you over 30 seconds of a fight with diseases up for free.
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Re: [DK Blood Tank] 4.0.1 Rotation Help

Postby Flex » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:29 pm

And yet Outbreak still doesn't spread diseases to other targets, just the primary target. It saves one GCD.
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Re: [DK Blood Tank] 4.0.1 Rotation Help

Postby Korola » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:41 pm

Flex wrote:And yet Outbreak still doesn't spread diseases to other targets, just the primary target. It saves one GCD.


You're right. To spread them you still have to cast Pest. So instead of one frost, one unholy and one blood in 3 GCD's (3 runes 3 GCD's)

One free, and one blood in 2 GCD's, saving you a Frost and Unholy for DS. Still a pretty good trade off. (1 rune 2 GCD's)

Damage would still be cut in half but you would have both diseases up for roughly 33 seconds.
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Re: [DK Blood Tank] 4.0.1 Rotation Help

Postby d503 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:52 pm

Korola wrote:
Flex wrote:And yet Outbreak still doesn't spread diseases to other targets, just the primary target. It saves one GCD.


You're right. To spread them you still have to cast Pest. So instead of one frost, one unholy and one blood in 3 GCD's (3 runes 3 GCD's)

One free, and one blood in 2 GCD's, saving you a Frost and Unholy for DS. Still a pretty good trade off. (1 rune 2 GCD's)

Damage would still be cut in half but you would have both diseases up for roughly 33 seconds.


Having diseases up, at least for me, is less about their individual damage (which blizzard has *stressed* they intended to reduce) and more about their effect on BB and HS.

Don't get me wrong, I *HATE* diseases in a multi-target situation...they're cumbersome, annoying, and the fact that we have to use 2 or 3 GCDs and 1-3 runes to apply what is basically a damage buff to Blood Boil prior to doing anything snap-aggro is ridiculous. Yeah, I could run into a pack, BB, then IT-PS-Pest, but then all of my blood runes are spent, and I have to rune tap in order to Blood Boil again.

The AOE model doesn't work well, when trying to use diseases at all. I wish they would take the damage buffs per disease off of BB, and just let it be straight up damage. Leave it on Heart Strike, that's fine, but Blood Boil just makes it a quality of life issue.
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Re: [DK Blood Tank] 4.0.1 Rotation Help

Postby Kelaan » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:56 pm

Don't we also have Festering Strike (FU) to prolong the diseases? I know it's part of Unholy's rotation, but it doesn't look like it's talented. (Possible I misread the tree.) That plus Epidemic should be able to push their duration for quite a while, and on bosses the TPS loss of refreshing the diseases normally (IT/PS) mid-fight is less of an impact than it would be when doing trash.
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Re: [DK Blood Tank] 4.0.1 Rotation Help

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:20 pm

Festering Strike uses a Blood and Unholy rune, and only increases diseases by 6 (or 8, if comments on wowhead are right) seconds. You'd be giving up a lot of threat to hit it every 8 seconds to maintain diseases.
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Re: [DK Blood Tank] 4.0.1 Rotation Help

Postby d503 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:21 pm

Kelaan wrote:Don't we also have Festering Strike (FU) to prolong the diseases? I know it's part of Unholy's rotation, but it doesn't look like it's talented. (Possible I misread the tree.) That plus Epidemic should be able to push their duration for quite a while, and on bosses the TPS loss of refreshing the diseases normally (IT/PS) mid-fight is less of an impact than it would be when doing trash.


Festering Strike is not talented, but it is more aligned for Unholy builds due to its odd usage of BF runes for execution. That would throw us off not only on our Heart Strikes but also our Death Strike and Death Rune rotations...as in, I think it would be more trouble than it's worth.
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Re: [DK Blood Tank] 4.0.1 Rotation Help

Postby d503 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:22 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:Festering Strike uses a Blood and Unholy rune, and only increases diseases by 6 (or 8, if comments on wowhead are right) seconds. You'd be giving up a lot of threat to hit it every 8 seconds to maintain diseases.


What he said ;) Looks like it's merely meant so that Unholy doesn't have to reapply diseases ever, and uses their Blood Runes more usefully.
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Re: [DK Blood Tank] 4.0.1 Rotation Help

Postby Kiorken » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:05 am

Ah, you guys are amazing, thank you so much for the input! Also, Korola, you answered more of the questions that popped up in my mind, as I was reading your response. That's very intuitive.

I didn't know about Runic Empowerment too much, or how the new Rune System works. I wasn't a huge DK fan before, but I enjoy playing around on Setha occasionally, just to tank with her in a different style than Prot. I suppose I should have been as zealous to read about DK tanking.

I also wonder, does anyone know of a CLCinfo addon that could help with the new Blood rotation? Back in the day, when I RARELY played as DPS on my DK, I used something called Facesmasher, so that I could get used to pre-patch Unholy. I doubt it still exists, or would even apply to tanking.

So, the consensus is:
-AOE trash, (Heroics, and Progression) CURRENTLY, should be diseaseless. Including DnD on pull, and then BB with 4+ targets, then alternate HS/DS/RS?
-Single target (Heroics), should also be diseaseless? Start with DS, then alternate with HS and DS, with RS dumps?
-Single target (Progression) should have diseases? So, IT, PS, DS, RS, so on...
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